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IRA to Roth IRA conversions
07-18-2020, 08:17 AM
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#1
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pensacola
Posts: 53
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IRA to Roth IRA conversions
Looks like future tax rates will be higher than they currently are now. I also don't like the idea of being at the mercy of the RMDs. So, my plan is to convert as much of my traditional IRAs to Roth as i can over the next several years.
I know this is a taxable event but I dont want to pay quarterly payments. Is it possible to pay a lump sum to the IRS for each conversion instead of the quarterly payments?
thx
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07-18-2020, 08:52 AM
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#2
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,202
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If this is your only income, sure, you can pay the lump sum. If it's in the first quarter, that's all you need to do. If it's later, you may need to fill out form 2210 with your taxes, to show that you are paying taxes in the quarter that the taxable income was recognized.
More likely you have some other income, so you'll owe other taxes in other quarters as well. I find the EFPTS system for quarterly payments is so easy to set up and use that I don't give it another thought. I can set up payments for all 4 quarters, and change them very easily if needed. It's certainly easier than doing form 2210, IMO.
Worst case for you if you still want to avoid quarterly payments, you might have to pay a small penalty under form 2210 if your tax payments doesn't match up quarterly with your income.
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Annualized estimated tax payments
07-18-2020, 09:12 AM
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#3
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Dryer sheet wannabe
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 16
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Annualized estimated tax payments
You can use the annualized estimated tax method to pay your taxes as income is accrued, rather than in equal quarterly payments. Of course, the IRS doesn't make it simple. You have to do some math, via the worksheets in Publication 505. See the section "Instructions for the 2020 Annualized Estimated Tax Worksheet (Worksheet 2-7)" https://www.irs.gov/publications/p50...link1000194674
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07-18-2020, 09:20 AM
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#4
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Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 34,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunningBum
If this is your only income, sure, you can pay the lump sum. If it's in the first quarter, that's all you need to do. If it's later, you may need to fill out form 2210 with your taxes, to show that you are paying taxes in the quarter that the taxable income was recognized.
More likely you have some other income, so you'll owe other taxes in other quarters as well. I find the EFPTS system for quarterly payments is so easy to set up and use that I don't give it another thought. I can set up payments for all 4 quarters, and change them very easily if needed. It's certainly easier than doing form 2210, IMO.
Worst case for you if you still want to avoid quarterly payments, you might have to pay a small penalty under form 2210 if your tax payments doesn't match up quarterly with your income.
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I certainly find the EFTPS system easy to use. In late December or early January I run my tax return through TurboTax to see exactly what tax I am due to pay and adjust the 4th quarterly payment accordingly. (Jan 15th is the date the 4th payment goes out).
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Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
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07-18-2020, 09:27 AM
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#5
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pensacola
Posts: 53
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What is the EFPTS system?
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07-18-2020, 09:31 AM
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#6
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamonkey
Looks like future tax rates will be higher than they currently are now. I also don't like the idea of being at the mercy of the RMDs. So, my plan is to convert as much of my traditional IRAs to Roth as i can over the next several years.
I know this is a taxable event but I dont want to pay quarterly payments. Is it possible to pay a lump sum to the IRS for each conversion instead of the quarterly payments?
thx
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If you're over 59 1/2, instead of quarterly payments you can just do a IRA withdrawal with 100% withholding in December for the taxes that you expect to owe (including the withdrawal for taxes of course).
For the purpose of underpayment penalties, the IRS considers withholdings as done evenly throughout the year irrespective of when they actually happen.
So for example, if your in the 22% tax bracket and expect to owe $10k in taxes, you would withdraw $12,821 and have it 100% withheld. The withdrawal increase your taxes by $2,821 ($12, 821* 22%)... which when added to $10k of taxed that you expected to owe is $12,821.
The only downside is that the money doesn't end up in the Roth, but it is out of the tIRA and therefore end up reducing RMDs.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
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07-18-2020, 09:32 AM
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#7
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 17,012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazztbone
You can use the annualized estimated tax method to pay your taxes as income is accrued, rather than in equal quarterly payments. Of course, the IRS doesn't make it simple. You have to do some math, via the worksheets in Publication 505. See the section "Instructions for the 2020 Annualized Estimated Tax Worksheet (Worksheet 2-7)" https://www.irs.gov/publications/p50...link1000194674
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I just pay 1.1 times the total tax for the previous year, then whatever my taxes are when I do my return I pay or get a refund.
There is no penalty as the 1.1 is a safe harbor rule.
Too much of a pain to try to calculate out the proper amount.
__________________
Fortune favors the prepared mind. ... Louis Pasteur
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07-18-2020, 09:43 AM
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#8
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Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 34,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamonkey
What is the EFPTS system?
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Electronic Funds Transfer Payment System
Easy way to send payments to the IRS
https://www.irs.gov/payments/eftps-t...payment-system
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
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07-18-2020, 09:44 AM
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#9
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boise
Posts: 7,866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamonkey
What is the EFPTS system?
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https://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+is+the+EFPTS+system%3F
__________________
"At times the world can seem an unfriendly and sinister place, but believe us when we say there is much more good in it than bad. All you have to do is look hard enough, and what might seem to be a series of unfortunate events, may in fact be the first steps of a journey." Violet Baudelaire.
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07-18-2020, 09:54 AM
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#10
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,024
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I do a large Roth conversion each December. I pay the associated tax with my Jan 15 quarterly payment. When I file, I use Form 2210 to avoid penalties for under-withholding.
I prefer not to use the safe harbor rules, like 100% or 110% of prior year tax liability, because I would overpay in the first 3 quarters. Most of our income is in 4Q due to the large conversion. And in case I decide NOT to make a conversion, I avoid being significantly OVER-withheld.
I recently investigated doing a December IRA withdrawal with 100% withholding, as described by pb4uski. It's definitely an effective approach for people with drastically uneven income, like large conversions. But it also means using IRA funds instead of taxable funds to pay conversion tax. This negates one of the benefits of doing Roth conversions.
Since we still have tax-efficient access to taxable funds, I elected not to go that route for now. It's less convenient to do quarterly estimates and Form 2210. But it's a relatively small administrative trade-off to get maximum funds into the Roth, which is a more important objective.
__________________
Retired at 52 in July 2013. On to better things...
AA: 85/15 WR: 2.7% SI: 2 pensions, SS later
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07-18-2020, 11:16 AM
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#11
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pensacola
Posts: 53
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Thanks for all the responses. This gives me some options on how to handle this. My plan is to make the conversions each year when/if there is a large drop in the stock market. If there is no drop, then i make the conversion in December. If I make the conversions in December then I file the Form 2210 and pay the tax with the January payment. If i make the conversion sometime during the middle of the year, then there is a similar process by using the Form 2210. If I change my mind and just make the conversions at the beginning of each year, then I would use the estimated tax form and do quarterly payments through the EFPTS system.
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07-18-2020, 03:59 PM
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#12
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 17,012
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I use this to pay the IRS, as I just want to pay them and not schedule a payment far in advance.
I don't know which is better as I never used the other one, but this one works well.
https://www.irs.gov/payments/direct-pay
__________________
Fortune favors the prepared mind. ... Louis Pasteur
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07-18-2020, 06:45 PM
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#13
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamonkey
Thanks for all the responses. This gives me some options on how to handle this. My plan is to make the conversions each year when/if there is a large drop in the stock market. If there is no drop, then i make the conversion in December. If I make the conversions in December then I file the Form 2210 and pay the tax with the January payment. If i make the conversion sometime during the middle of the year, then there is a similar process by using the Form 2210. If I change my mind and just make the conversions at the beginning of each year, then I would use the estimated tax form and do quarterly payments through the EFPTS system.
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This (more or less) works if the conversions are your only taxable income. Do you have significant other income?
You file form 2210 only together with form 1040, etc., when you do your normal tax return. Understanding how 2210 works, however, is a good thing.
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07-19-2020, 03:42 AM
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#14
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,691
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So once you’re past 59.5 and the Roth was started more than 5 years ago, there’s no penalties or restrictions, for example I can make a conversion in March and a Roth withdrawal in June, then another conversion in July?
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07-19-2020, 05:44 AM
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#15
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,266
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Yes.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
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07-19-2020, 06:09 AM
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#16
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,879
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It takes about 2 minutes to pay quarterly taxes online.
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07-19-2020, 06:55 AM
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#17
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 11,701
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This transition to retirement has been tumultuous for estimated taxes.
We overpaid heavily last year. So, looking it the numbers, the overpayment should be more than enough to cover this year's tax. So, I applied the overpayment to this year.
That should be fine, right? It is essentially paid 1st quarter for the entire year. Do I have to file a 2210? I have quarterly income from investments and the 3rd quarter will get the bump from the IRA to Roth conversion.
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Retired Class of 2018
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07-19-2020, 07:21 AM
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#18
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWras
This transition to retirement has been tumultuous for estimated taxes.
We overpaid heavily last year. So, looking it the numbers, the overpayment should be more than enough to cover this year's tax. So, I applied the overpayment to this year.
That should be fine, right? It is essentially paid 1st quarter for the entire year. Do I have to file a 2210? I have quarterly income from investments and the 3rd quarter will get the bump from the IRA to Roth conversion.
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should be fine w/ no need for 2210...........estimated taxes are supposed to be paid quarterly in equal installments but if you pay faster nobody is going to complain.
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07-19-2020, 07:26 AM
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#19
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 11,701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneohe
should be fine w/ no need for 2210...........estimated taxes are supposed to be paid quarterly in equal installments but if you pay faster nobody is going to complain.
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Thanks. Normally I don't do this. I pay quarterly and try to be close to the need.
The confusion is during the w*rking to retirement transition. This caused a big overpayment on our part last year. With low interest rates, it was just easy to "let it ride" this one time.
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Retired Class of 2018
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07-19-2020, 07:27 AM
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#20
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWras
.... The confusion is during the w*rking to retirement transition. This caused a big overpayment on our part last year. With low interest rates, it was just easy to "let it ride" this one time.
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You're not the first to do that, nor will you be the last.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
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