It can't be the money....

[Letj]

Its interesting in this country(and probably others), that we're all trying to get MORE (money). A million isn't enough anymore, it was a decade ago or so. Now we can't be happy or retire unless we have 2, 3, or 4 million so that we can "retire" comfortably and do.....? The CEO's have to make hundreds of millions of dollars insted of concentrating on making good, reliable products that are safe and durable. With all the masterminds and PhD's we produce we can't even fix some of societies basic problems: eldercare, healthcare, education just to name a few. We have(are) breeding an individualistic, me, me, me society.

We work feverishly to get to THAT point and in the meantime back at the ranch, we're taking more antianxiety drugs, antidepressants, sleep meds, antihypertensives to just deal with all the problems of daily life just to get to THAT point. Our kids are getting obese, early age diabetes and alcoholics and I might add are competing with the adults for the antidepressants.

The one "good" thing with the youngfolks is, the teenage pregnancy rate is down, not necessarily sexual activity. There's a HDTV in every room of the 3-4 story house (megahouse) so the family unit is disintegrating.............I was just wondering with all the emphasis on getting to THAT financial point what's happening to US as a society?

I'm interested in others' constructive thoughts/opines.

I hope I posted this in the appropriate topic section, if not feel free to move me.

Wow. Ferco's post really brought out some strong reactions. My take on his post is completely different from most of the people reacting to it. I think it's quite a stretch to interprete this post to mean an attack on making money, individualism and financial security. I see this post as an attempt to refocus us on what's important in life. He is correct; we are so focused on getting more and more but yet we are stressed out, disatisfied with our lives, have unrealistic expectations of how we should look and how much we should possess, drugged up with anti-depressents and are less happy than our grand-parents. What is life if you have all the money in the world but yet you are miserable and not contented? How much does a human being need to make them comfortable? Are our expectations too high and leave us anxious? At what point do you become contented and happy? Study after study proves that once humans achieve a certain comfort level no additional amount of money will bring you more happiness. The law of diminishing returns take over. For many people, having more and more material things is a life long quest. Should we focus more on making society a better place by helping our fellow citizens and giving back more of our time, spend more time with our family and focus less on material things?

I have travelled widely and I can say that based on my observations, Americans are the most insecure and money obsessed culture and part of that is because people in the us are truely on their own. If you become ill, God help you unlike all other developed countries. In the developing world, the expectations are much lower and people are happy despite the great poverty some of them suffer (I am not talking starvation here; it's hard to be happy if you're starving). With all the material things we possess, we consistently rank low on quality of life in this country. The countries that pay higher taxes, have less consumption and care more about the well being of their citizens, seem to do better in that area. Our immediate neighbor Canada consistenly ranks as the best country in the world to live by the UN, I wonder why? In most respects they are better than the US - social problems, literacy (their students seem to out score ours in every category), etc.

May be an alternative is to be more like the Europeans - relax, smell the roses, take month long vacations to the country or at the seaside. Let's keep Ferco's comments in perspective; it's a sobering one.

 

[Webzter]

Well, then Ferco's probably on the wrong board to rant against people that need ten million dollars and need to constantly buy stuff.

I have a friend that often makes 80's pop culture references... I usually end up looking dumbfounded because I just can't relate. I suppose there are people that just spend their money to buy happiness and take lots of medications because they feel that it'll make them happier. I just don't personally know anyone like that so I can't relate.

So, sure?

 

[megacorp-firee]

I don't spend much time worrying about other people's problems.

I have my own life to live.

Audrey

Amen to that Audrey. A refreshing viewpoint.
If only more would do the same, the world would be a better place. Thanks.
IMO ... Do unto others and the world would be fine.

 

[Bigritchie]

Good Lord what is up with the OP being attacked for pointing out the reasons that many of us want to retire.

Ferco, I feel about the same as you, the rat race just enslaves us.

paradise was once defined as a place that took 20 minutes per day to feed your family

 

[Sam]

paradise was once defined as a place that took 20 minutes per day to feed your family

That type of paradise still exists today in all parts of the world. Only the name has changed, it's now called extreme poverty. Not for me, thanks.

 

[FinanceDude]

I hear a lot of "Other people ought to..." in this thread, and little to no "I do X and Y to try to improve the conditions of the poor, the world, etc. and I do it with my own time and resources." It's a lot easier to condemn the sins of society or of your neighbour, than it is to take actions to improve your own self or to directly aid others.

As much as I would like to think of myself as some sort of wordly permanent Peace Corps volunteer, I feel we have a bunch of serious problems in the good ole USA. I help nationally against hunger and locally against hunger, give tons of stuff to Goodwill and Purple Heart, give money to the American Cancer and Lung Centers, etc.

Just because I haven't adopted 20 African kids or something doesn't mean I don't care........

 

[kcowan]

I think there are "rat races" in every society. It is usually among people that work strictly for the money and not for self-actualization. The US provides a better environment and financial rewards for self-actualization than any other society.

Because that is an inherent strength, it can also give people the perception that it is the only objective. But that is not true. The US has a tremendous breadth of people with differing objectives. This creates a rich diversity for those that take the trouble to experience it.

Just the differing reactions in this thread illustrate some of that. (And this board is a highly-specific subset of the population.)

 

[Mach]

As much as I would like to think of myself as some sort of wordly permanent Peace Corps volunteer

Great example.

But you already are this global helper that you refer to, don't sell yourself short.

If you're part of this economy (Any), you already:

#1 Directly do work FOR society (at your job, this is big!)
#2 Your taxes go to help feed the poor, domestically, and abroad
#3 funds..medicine, research
#4 funds schools, education
#5 funds hospitals so they can treat people with no insurance or who cannot pay.
..
..
and so on.

It's more likely that people that work hard and pay a lot of taxes help more peoples lives than somone who volunteers full time handing out food boxes. Capitalism is about efficient use of human energy, and that includes efficeintly saving lives, or helping build a better society (or destroying it :/ )
I'm not saying volunteering is bad at all, and that can often help people emotionally feel connected and valued. But I'd rather see Bill Gates help drive a philanthropic organization than seeing him cook dinners for the needy every day.

-Mach

 

[Sam]

I think there are "rat races" in every society. It is usually among people that work strictly for the money and not for self-actualization. The US provides a better environment and financial rewards for self-actualization than any other society.

Because that is an inherent strength, it can also give people the perception that it is the only objective. But that is not true. The US has a tremendous breadth of people with differing objectives. This creates a rich diversity for those that take the trouble to experience it.

All true and very well put.

 

[Mach]

I think there are "rat races" in every society. It is usually among people that work strictly for the money and not for self-actualization.

But this begs the question.

Who helps society more?

A. The rat-race runner who pays $200K in taxes every year and works 60 hours a week doing insanely stressful work nonstop?

B. Or someone working part time at a coffee shop who likes to take life easy and smell the roses?

Much more interesting IMO.

-Mach

 

[me_no_boss]

I think the answer depends on the your friends.
See if you surround yourself with high society, country club members as friends, $1M will feel puny.
But if all your friends buy outfits from Walmart, then you are already their role model with $1M and your ego should be at 120 psi.
So to be happy, fire your rich friends.

For me, WM is one of the better stores I shop at.
I love my DW, but she doesn't like shopping there.
And if she is not happy, I will soon be unhappy also.
If I am like Khan, free of these issues, I think I can retire on 500K.

 

[wildcat]

What if the 200k is incredibly mismanaged and used in wasteful ways? [-]Much more realistic[/-] Much more interesting

 

[Mach]

What if the 200k is incredibly mismanaged and used in wasteful ways? [-]Much more realistic[/-] Much more interesting

But not really when you examine it.

1. They already did more work directly for society by earning the 200K (on average)
2. They pay more taxes which goes to all those charitble society building things that taxes are used for.
3. After all that charity, they earned the money, we have no ethical basis to tell them how to spend it. It's like going onto the "life after fire" forum and telling people who are retired that what they are doing with their earned retirement is wasteful. Crazy?

-Mach

 

[wildcat]

I should have been more clear. The taxes the 200k contributes and I was referring to the government who I doubt produces a very high ROI on taxes received.

 

[Sam]

The taxes the 200k contributes and I was referring to the government who I doubt produces a very high ROI on taxes received.

What difference does it make?

 

[Webzter]

But this begs the question.

Who helps society more?

A. The rat-race runner who pays $200K in taxes every year and works 60 hours a week doing insanely stressful work nonstop?

B. Or someone working part time at a coffee shop who likes to take life easy and smell the roses?

Much more interesting IMO.

-Mach

are they both self-sufficient? Which one is more likely to need assistance in the future? Does the rat-racer have a healthy form of stress relief or is he prone to outbursts at his neighbors or others?

Does one volunteer? Do either of them have kids? Are they actively invovled with their family? What morals are they teaching their kids for the future?

Is one living a fairly simple life while the other is propping his up with debt?

Is it maybe too narrow a lens to examine someone based solely on their income?

 

[tangomonster]

I agree about rampant materialism. Just today in the AARP magazine they talked about a couple who bought a retirement home in a golf community that has four bedrooms and 5400 sf---just for the two of them! I think McMansions don't even feel like homes. I think the majority of people don't need SUVs. I think it's a riot that every one needs "a designer kitchen" and then doesn't cook in it! It's outrageous how expensive weddings have gotten. Yesterday on The Colbert Report, there was a guest who lives in Bejing and he talked about how the land is being destroyed because of the ever increasing American consumption of cheaper cashmere leading to the Chinese production of it (goats), which is responsible for all this dust that comes to the West coast. And now that the Chinese are producing so much, their economy and consumerism is growing, so it will just continue the cycle. But that brings me to another point: rampant consumerism is no longer just an American phenomenon. The Chinese and Indians, just like the Russians before them, are doing the same thing.

I found it so sad recently to read an article bemoaning the fact that the current generation isn't as doing as well economically as their parents had done at their age. I know it's been the goal of parents to have their kids "have a better life" by earning and spending more. But realistically, how much more could lives be upgraded materially? How could homes and cars become any bigger? Maybe this will be the start of looking at nonmaterial things to find happiness.

But Ferco confuses the point by implying that people are working feverishly to accumulate lots of money to retire early...and to buy things! As Webzter said, people who are striving to get several million dollars to drop out of the rat race are not also living in a McMansion with a HDTV in every room. I don't think too many people on this board earned such a high salary that they could save millions while spending thousands and millions. I worked hard, not to accumulate money or things, but just because the job and my work ethic required it. And because working wasn't good for me in so many ways, I lived way below my means even on a small salary to save and invest money, so I could get out at an early age.

As Old Woman, said, a million dollars could bring $40,000 at a SWR. If you don't have a pension (my case) and you're paying $1000 a month for insurance, and have 12 years to go until Medicare and you want to have some protection for stock market downturns so your 1 million doesn't go down and give you even less than $40K, it is best to have more than a million.

I've yet to see anyone on this board who is overly materialistic. A few maybe have lived with a lot of materialism and now seem ready to downsize and concentrate on what's important. So let's not confuse the vast majority of Americans or consumers around the world with this very small group of FIRE wannabes or successes!

 

[wildcat]

What difference does it make?

It was in response to mach's point that the person making 200k/working 60 hours yada yada and contributing more in taxes is in return doing a lot of good for society. My point, Sam if actually read the posts, is that if those tax dollars are poorly spent, what good is it really doing for society? Your tax dollars that paid for the $25-30 million dollars worth of Hurricane Katrina ice that had to be later destroyed (I kid you not), is not making society a better place now is it? I suppose we can debate that as well.

From mach

Who helps society more?

A. The rat-race runner who pays $200K in taxes every year and works 60 hours a week doing insanely stressful work nonstop?

B. Or someone working part time at a coffee shop who likes to take life easy and smell the roses?

 

[Sam]

I read the posts carefully before I asked that question. Tax money is tax money. Why does it make a difference where it comes from? If the humongous tax contributed by the rat-race is poorly spent, so would be the pitiful contribution by the part time coffee shop worker.

Now if you want to discuss about how effieciently the government manages tax money, then that would be a completely new subject.

 

[wildcat]

Nope, not interested enough in doing so.

 

[Mach]

To keep it short and not fuel any more [-]fires[/-] heated posts:

Yes. And your point is a sufficient condition to rejecting the original post, that focusing on reaching financial point X or being a wealthy CEO, is somehow necessarily bad for society in most meaningful definitions of good/bad.

Onen step further, not only does it not appear to be bad, it appears to be both ethical, and good, for the right reasons (efficiently helping society through hard work and a free economic system), as a whole. That's for a society in general, which is consistent with the OP claims which were not specific.

-Mach

 

[Mach]

I should have been more clear. The taxes the 200k contributes and I was referring to the government who I doubt produces a very high ROI on taxes received.

Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to claim that 200K vs 40K somehow necessarily makes a person more ethical, only show that it certainly doesn't make them LESS good or ethical.

I'm personally not interested in running the rat-race any longer than necessary, and I intend to do get out of it through savings and investment, which I don't think is bad for society.

-Mach

 

[haha]

For me, WM is one of the better stores I shop at.
I love my DW, but she doesn't like shopping there.
And if she is not happy, I will soon be unhappy also.
If I am like Khan, free of these issues, I think I can retire on 500K.

You can free yourself of these issues- exactly the same way that Kahn did. It's called divorce. But often it's cheaper to deal with the issues some other way.

Ha

 

[ferco]

This post has become increasingly interesting..its amazing how we all interpret and draw conclusions based on what we perceive what someone has said or is thinking. Most of my statemnts in the original post were only observations of events in the society in which we live. I have found that some of us, perhaps study or live economics on the macro level and some of us on the micro level. As a crude analogy, as much as I/we would like to ignore/destroy the plants and trees, we are in fact in a life sustaining symbiotic relationship. I need the oxygen they produce and they need the carbon dioxide I produce,...... just try going 60 seconds without it!

 

[kcowan]

The person pulling in $200k+ contributes in ways beyond just taxes. They create jobs at Costco when they purchase their HDTVs. Their McMansions create jobs for builders, etc. and when comepleted for gardeners, etc.

I could argue that the person that makes $200k a year and works until 65 and spends like the Jonses ends up making a larger contribution to society than the person making $200k who LBYMs and retires at 40.

Which is better in the long term? Well that is a different topic!