Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-24-2017, 09:05 AM   #21
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 17,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
Yet that is not what the article discusses. It's definitely not talking about three-legged stools.
I agree it is not.

But, the principle of diversity still holds true, IMHO, whether we are looking at one leg of the stool or the whole stool. In Kitces article he wants us to diversify our investments and that, I think, is a good idea. It makes that leg of the stool stronger.

Not all legs can be easily diversified - for example a pension and SS. Though I suppose one might argue that choosing the right survivor option in the pension along with when to take SS might allow for a bit of diversity that can reduce overall risk.
__________________
Comparison is the thief of joy

The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-24-2017, 09:11 AM   #22
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fedup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 4,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
Skill? Not so much. Discipline maybe. You just set up a simple asset allocation. Rebalance rarely, and try to ignore the news/noise. I don't see that as requiring skill. Lots of people here are doing this - some with just one or two funds!

Immediate annuity - well I might decide to purchase such a thing when I'm considerably older and the payout is much greater. But at this time I'm not ready to make the such a long-term bet on the insurance companies, nor take the current payout rates.
I read the article and it's about what pot to take your money from, coordinating your cash flows, not just simple AA. I'm sure some people I know won't be able to do it. AA is easier. Determine how much in stocks and how much in bonds.
I also read the Janet Quinn Bryant book about retirement, she is my favorite financial author since high school. She also recommends an immediate annuity as part of your retirement income, just a small part. I think very few people that I know is able to manage this complexity and they are all engineers or accountants. My secretary was a teacher and at age 65, she is even more clueless. I had to help her many times on just basic stuff. Maybe people in this forum has the smart to do it. Not many people I know can.
Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 09:20 AM   #23
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
walkinwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 3,506
How do you define your "principal"? Is it the amount of cash that you invested before any reinvested dividends, interest or capital gains?

For anyone who has invested for years without withdrawing anything (during the working years), this amount would be a fraction of your portfolio value at ER.
walkinwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 09:25 AM   #24
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 38,012
I know some folks think diversity in retirement income sources is really important, but what choices does one actually have practically speaking?

To get a pension, you have to go work for a company that offers one. These have been shrinking rapidly over decades, so making that a requirement limits our choices of companies and jobs. The substitute annuities are much more expensive than what pensions usually offer, and IMO, also don't usually make sense until one is considerably older.

To have a large social security income, you have to work a long time earning a good salary so you have 30-35 years of good earnings to maximize that SS payout.

It may work out that way for many folks. But some of us worked in industries that stopped offering pensions a long time ago. And some of us retired too early to build up a big SS earnings record (and that's OK because it was so far off we weren't counting on it being there anyway).

Not everyone wants to deal with multiple property ownership and landlord challenges in order to have a rental income stream in retirement.

Do we not retire early then because we don't have these other legs? I didn't think so. IMO if you have sufficient liquid assets you can retire early. It's just fine to live entirely on your liquid investments.
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
audreyh1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 09:39 AM   #25
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fedup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 4,032
I don't think that's what suggested by anyone here, but people retire on liquid assets have to have a little more sophisticate knowledge of managing their investments or hire somebody who does. There are many ways to do early retirement. It's not one way. For those of us who are not so confident about our ability, we tend to hedge a different way.
I know people who retire early strictly on a small pension and CDs. They don't trust the stock market. But what they can count on is their ability to manage spending. You never heard of people who just investing in CDs here.
Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 09:48 AM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 38,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedup View Post
I read the article and it's about what pot to take your money from, coordinating your cash flows, not just simple AA. I'm sure some people I know won't be able to do it. AA is easier. Determine how much in stocks and how much in bonds.
I also read the Janet Quinn Bryant book about retirement, she is my favorite financial author since high school. She also recommends an immediate annuity as part of your retirement income, just a small part. I think very few people that I know is able to manage this complexity and they are all engineers or accountants. My secretary was a teacher and at age 65, she is even more clueless. I had to help her many times on just basic stuff. Maybe people in this forum has the smart to do it. Not many people I know can.
Well, to me a total return approach using an AA and rebalancing automatically takes care of which pots your income is taken from. You don't even have to think about it.

The SWR methods all use this total return approach and usually recommend a good mix of equity and fixed income. You're going to get interest (cash interest and bond dividends), stock dividends, capital appreciation, and have to occasionally dip into principal after down years or if your portfolio doesn't keep up with inflation as you get older.

So you just need to pick a well diversified AA and choose your withdrawal method and rate.

I think it's very straightforward.

I certainly don't think about any "moving parts". I simply take all distributions in cash, withdraw my annual income, and rebalance the portfolio. Those are the basic mechanics.

An income only investor does it differently. They take interest and dividends as income and reinvest capital gains distributions, and otherwise leave the portfolio alone.

Neither is complex to implement once you've selected your AA and the investment to make up that AA.
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
audreyh1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 09:54 AM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedup View Post
I don't think that's what suggested by anyone here, but people retire on liquid assets have to have a little more sophisticate knowledge of managing their investments or hire somebody who does. There are many ways to do early retirement. It's not one way. For those of us who are not so confident about our ability, we tend to hedge a different way.
I know people who retire early strictly on a small pension and CDs. They don't trust the stock market. But what they can count on is their ability to manage spending. You never heard of people who just investing in CDs here.


My last 6% CD I signed up for was 2007. Give me that yield and the inflation rate of today or 2007 and you would quickly be hearing about at least one forum member who is 100% invested in CDs.
Mulligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 09:58 AM   #28
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 17,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
I know some folks think diversity in retirement income sources is really important, but what choices does one actually have practically speaking?
Agreed. Not everybody can do it depending on the the choices they made and the barriers life handed them. But, we do our best in our own personal situation even if there are flaws. Like my old grandpappy used to say "Never let the perfect become the enemy of the good".
__________________
Comparison is the thief of joy

The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 10:00 AM   #29
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedup View Post
You never heard of people who just investing in CDs here.

Never say never......there was this guy, obgyn65. He hasn't been around for a while.

http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...n65-52013.html
Meadbh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 10:03 AM   #30
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fedup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 4,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
My last 6% CD I signed up for was 2007. Give me that yield and the inflation rate of today or 2007 and you would quickly be hearing about at least one forum member who is 100% invested in CDs.
Oh I forgot about you. But I thought you did complain about it's boring because it's so consistent.
Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 10:04 AM   #31
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2017ish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadbh View Post
Never say never......there was this guy, obgyn65. He hasn't been around for a while.

http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...n65-52013.html
He is still active on Bogleheads, effectively retired, and working on his medical philanthropy.

Prodigious saver.

E.T.A.--his last Bhead post was Nov. 2016. He works part-time, still extremely conservative investments.
__________________
OMY * 3 2ish Done 7.28.17
2017ish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 10:05 AM   #32
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fedup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 4,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadbh View Post
Never say never......there was this guy, obgyn65. He hasn't been around for a while.

http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...n65-52013.html
That was in 2010, he might change his mind since then.
Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 10:08 AM   #33
Administrator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,589
A CD is not an investment, it's a loan. You only are entitled to the agreed on rate and the return of your loan.

An equity is an investment, you acquire an ownership stake and a share of all future cash flows.
MichaelB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 10:30 AM   #34
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedup View Post
I don't think that's what suggested by anyone here, but people retire on liquid assets have to have a little more sophisticate knowledge of managing their investments or hire somebody who does.
It does not really require much sophistication to manage the portfolio. We've lived exclusively on our portfolio for the last 3 years with only SS coming online in a couple of years. Our portfolio consists of 8 index funds that I rebalanced for the first time back in January. I am comfortable with managing my investments but if I wasn't or if I want to simplify the process for DW in the next few years I may go to a one fund target retirement index fund.
Corporateburnout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 10:35 AM   #35
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado Mountains
Posts: 3,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
A CD is not an investment, it's a loan. You only are entitled to the agreed on rate and the return of your loan.

An equity is an investment, you acquire an ownership stake and a share of all future cash flows.
That is technically true. A bond would also be a loan. I think I will continue to think of both stocks and bonds as investments of where I put my money to work for me. It may be stocks, bonds, or CDs if that looks like the right place. After all, asset allocation is important for my "investments".
Hermit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 10:53 AM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,683
My pillars in ER are mostly the same as what was in the linked article. But I have some differences.


Because I ERed at 45 eight years ago, I do not have unfettered access to my IRA (I know about the 72t option, it's Plan B). So, I am living off only 2/3 of my overall portfolio, the non-IRA part. And I am living off most of its monthly and quarterly dividends, not its principal. I reinvest the cap gain distributions, giving me more shares to earn my monthly and quarterly dividends from.


Once I turn ~59.5 in 2022, I can begin tapping into the first of my "reinforcements," or the other pillars of that big stool. The IRA, the rest of my portfolio, is first. In the years following that, I can begin collecting SS and my frozen company pension. Pretty good stool.
__________________
Retired in late 2008 at age 45. Cashed in company stock, bought a lot of shares in a big bond fund and am living nicely off its dividends. IRA, SS, and a pension await me at age 60 and later. No kids, no debts.

"I want my money working for me instead of me working for my money!"
scrabbler1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 12:25 PM   #37
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Major Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SF East Bay
Posts: 4,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadbh View Post
Never say never......there was this guy, obgyn65. He hasn't been around for a while.
I've been wondering what happened to obgyn. I remember being frustrated with him, because he was talking about his fixed income instruments as if they would yield the same growth as a portfolio containing equities. I finally got him to concede that his plan was based on being able to save a particularly large sum of money, being satisfied with a conservative WR, and not expecting his portfolio value to keep pace with inflation over the long term.

I have no problem with anyone being in all fixed income, provided the long-term expectations are realistic. His philanthropic work was/is fantastic. I hope he's doing well. Certainly a valuable member of society.
__________________
Contentedly ER, with 3 furry friends (now, sadly, 1).
Planning my escape to the wide open spaces in my campervan (with my remaining kitty, of course!)
On a mission to become the world's second most boring man.

Major Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 12:59 PM   #38
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 9,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedup View Post
Oh I forgot about you. But I thought you did complain about it's boring because it's so consistent.


Been doing quite well past 3/4 years in preferreds and flipping them. And it has been a lot of fun. But I would trade them all for 6% CDs and happily become bored again! It isnt happening for quite a while I suspect so I guess so, I will stay on the same path until I dont.
Mulligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 01:56 PM   #39
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 38,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
A CD is not an investment, it's a loan. You only are entitled to the agreed on rate and the return of your loan.

An equity is an investment, you acquire an ownership stake and a share of all future cash flows.
bonds are the same thing as CDs in your scenario - loans that will be paid back some day. At least with CDs you don't have to worry about getting paid back if they are FDIC insured.

Many people choose to diversifying using both equities and fixed income (bonds, CDs, cash).
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
audreyh1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2017, 02:15 PM   #40
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fedup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 4,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
A CD is not an investment, it's a loan. You only are entitled to the agreed on rate and the return of your loan.

An equity is an investment, you acquire an ownership stake and a share of all future cash flows.
It depends on who you ask, but half of my husband's relatives think of investing in the stock market as equivalent as gambling. Only his engineering friends have investment in stocks.
Fedup is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking for The Four Pillars of Retirement Income Midpack FIRE and Money 22 04-26-2011 01:17 PM
The Four Pillars of Investing Sam Other topics 24 03-16-2007 07:16 AM
Four Pillars Book Question - Taxable Accounts Ponks Young Dreamers 9 02-21-2007 08:32 AM
Four Pillars and Bogleheads' Guide Jeb-NY FIRE and Money 3 01-04-2006 02:34 PM
Book Report - Four Pillars of Investing cute fuzzy bunny FIRE and Money 24 03-25-2004 11:24 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:25 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.