Like watching a car drive off a cliff...

[redduck]

... Case in point, my 54 yr old BIL recently had an accident that for now has him wheel chair bound as a quadriplegic. There is a reasonable chance he will regain a fair amount of his mobility, but we will not know for 12 months. He & my SIL both have college degrees, however, he is the bread winner in a very narrow industry with limited income potential. SIL has always been under employed working part time in a sandwich shop. 4 kids between ages of 14 - 20, 2 in college. They have sacrificed everything to send their kids to private schools and college out of state. Fast forward today... this accident to my BIL has totally exposed their financial situation.

Lots of parents sacrifice to send their kids to private schools and out-of-state colleges. Nothing unusual in that. What are the reasons the kids are in private schools and out-of-state colleges? And, now maybe with the family's dire financial straits, maybe there are grants and scholarships to be had.

... I would help them come up with a plan such as would selling their home be better to get the equity and is renting cheaper, etc? They are really in denial since they are not open to changing the kids schools, etc.... I would also help them to find what programs they may be eligible for and what items do they have of value that they could sell. Boats, RV's, jewelry, etc.

What boats, RV's and jewelry are you talking about? (I may have missed it in the OP's postings).

Yes this will be painful for them but it should be.

The guy is in a wheel chair and is a quadriplegic. How much more pain should the family be in? How about water-boarding them as a group?

 

[skipro33]

We all make financial decisions based on what we think is best for our gang. In the long run, we all think we made the right decision.

I'd never judge a man who decided to spend his coin as opposed to saving it for a rainy day. But I DO hold him accountable and responsible for those actions.

 

[RobbieB]

Obviously the children will have to quit school and get jobs and Ma needs a better job or they're gonna be homeless soon.

 

[skipro33]

skipro33, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

But, as to making our own "luck," I've never been sold on that. I've met lots of people who are "financially irresponsible." They either don't/won't or can't get it. I'm not sure it's a skill that everyone possesses--or that everyone can develop. I think it might be how some people are wired.

Skills are possessed only after they are learned. I certainly have no natural skill when it comes to money. The primary thing I learned about money is this; you get to spend a dollar only once. Then it's gone. It's not rocket science. I don't need to understand all the nuances of money management. Anyone with a 4th grade math education gets it. It need not be developed beyond that.

Stipulating that a rational, thinking man who can earn enough to fund a $100,000 a year lifestyle can't develop the basic skill to manage a budget that includes future debt should consider a career in politics, where having a propensity to spend other people's money is how they are wired.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I am not insensitive to his horrible position right now but that still does not excuse the fact that the family should not be expected to support them. I made a general suggestion that they may have items of value that they could sell. Horrible things happen to people all the time but this family will need to look at their financial position and make the necessary changes. The family can't support them forever so they are only delaying the inevitable. Having worked in human services for many years there are many programs/services they can use to help them and the family's time would be better spent helping them in that way. If he is a quad there is a good chance he won't improve enough to return to work depending on the type of work he did and any reasonable accommodations that can be made for his job. So instead of hoping that he is much better in 12 months their time might be better spent finding resources to utilize since most likely this will be a long term permanent problem. This type of injury is devastating to families and especially when it happens to the major breadwinner. They could barely afford all the schools and now they can't. If they can't get scholarships etc the kids will have to face the facts that they will need to change schools. Not fun but not the end of the world either. They need help coming up with a plan because they are in shock. Setting up fundraisers for medical expenses and a Go Fund Me account might be good ideas too. Insurance often leaves behind big medical bills. It does not cover everything. I did 4 fundraisers for a friend's daughter that needed a liver transplant at age 18. She had to travel for the transplant and even with insurance, etc and her parents being good with $ there were tons of expenses. I am not against the family helping but I think it is a mistake to allow them to just live like nothing has changed for a year and then after a year if he can't work for the family to quit giving them $ and then they are still in a horrible position and will be forced to make the hard changes they could have made a year before. I worked with people with disabilities for years and do not know too many quadriplegics to recover that much in a year. If he was a paraplegic then that would be different.

 

[Ready]

I don't think we should be predicting the likelihood of recovery of a person we know very little about. This family needs to be thinking positive right now and hoping for the best. Financial issues aside, this type of accident is devastating, and we should all be wishing him the best for a full recovery.




Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[Al in Ohio]

I think this, unfortunately, is the majority of people. My Sis and I talk about this often. While I am not in perfect shape and could have done MUCH better (as evidenced by some on here), and a catastrophe would thwart ER, I think I would be able to make it without burdening others.

One of discussions with Sis is how those in situation like your BIL and his wife seem to live without a care in the world, while those of us that have the foresight and understanding of this need seem to have the more stressful lives...

I would not put it in terms "more stressful lives". Once FI is achieved and even when halfway there, stress drops dramatically. When you reach $250k, then $500k and milestones beyond, you should sleep very well at night. I also felt I could tell my employer they could pound sand for most of my career (if I had to, but rarely did). Good decision making eventually becomes second nature for some of us.


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum

 

[skipro33]

I would not put it in terms "more stressful lives". Once FI is achieved and even when halfway there, stress drops dramatically. When you reach $250k, then $500k and milestones beyond, you should sleep very well at night. I also felt I could tell my employer they could pound sand for most of my career (if I had to, but rarely did). Good decision making eventually becomes second nature for some of us.

But HOW does someone ever reach FI when there's family that you feel obliged to support if THEY have a catastrophic event happen to them? Do you plan in your ideal of FI to gift X number of dollars for family outside your home budget and stick to that limit? Do you foresake your own FI in order to keep them in the lifestyle they've become accustomed, or is there some other method to deal with this?

 

[RobbieB]

How does someone ever do anything?

Because they want to do it.

If you want to help, help, if not don't help.

Same as it ever was.

 

[Sunset]

OP - I hope your BIL gets better as these are terrible things to happen to anyone.

As for the family pitching in to help, I can easily imagine some say that , but if you suggest the members put in $5K each right now to a bank account with double signing (you and someone else), then you will see who suddenly gets cold feet.
It's possible some other family members lived like your BIL.

I doubt your retirement plan included your BIL's family for the rest of their lives.

 

[DawgMan]

Interesting replies and hard to disagree with the different sediment. Once the dust settles, I am sure the family contribution $$ will come down as there are other sources (I.e. Gofundme) in play. None the less, the intent is to help family members get their feet steady in a crisis and not indulge/enable them... that is the intent. I have been thru this slippery slope with my mother before so am very aware of the sensitivities involved here. None the less, some of the comments raise other issues probably relevant to those on this site...

- Do you make part of your pre-RE and/or post-RE budget an allowance for charitable contributions? While I am 3 yrs or so from FIRE, this is part of my budget so I suppose choosing to give some of these $$ hopefully prudently to my BIL is easier for me and does not jeopardize my RE. As people who have planned and been financially responsible their whole life, I think it is easy to have a "screw you" attitude towards those who may have been irresponsible and "you ain't getting any of mine"... easy trap sometimes for us all to get on our high horse... just sayen something to be aware of.
- How have you dealt with the inequities of family members contributing in a financial crisis? How has it affected your relationships going forward? Having been thru this before, there are probably 2 schools of thought... 1) you give what you can because you can/want to and don't worry about everyone else, 2) it should be equitable in either a combination of $$/sweat equity. The challenge is everyone has a different opinion and these different positions can cause major long term rifts in a family.

Lots of dynamics here, but I would suggest our journey to FI is not all about us. That said, we have worked hard all these years to be self sufficient and don't want to jeopardize our futures. It's obviously personal to all of us.

 

[Bigdawg]

- Do you make part of your pre-RE and/or post-RE budget an allowance for charitable contributions? While I am 3 yrs or so from FIRE, this is part of my budget so I suppose choosing to give some of these $$ hopefully prudently to my BIL is easier for me and does not jeopardize my RE.

Is there a way to funnel your portion (of assistance to your BIL) through a charitable organization to ensure you get a tax deduction? Maybe thru their church?

Good Luck DawgMan. No easy solution here. Best of luck to you and your extended family.

 

[tps7742]

Very admirable of you dawgman and hopefully it will get better for your BIL. It's a very tough situation to be in I am sure?

 

[ivinsfan]

Well DawgMan, I don't know if anyone here said "Screw you" to the family, and in fact not giving cash directly is not saying "Screw you". There are many programs out there to help families in these situations. I would devote my time to cutting through red tape and finding out which programs might help them. The hoops involved can be time consuming and hard for someone dealing with devastating health news. Contact the county they live in for more ideas.

With no assets they should be able to get on a food stamp program and such. I'd give them a 1000 dollar gift card to the local grocery store and a gas card to the local gas station. Make sure they file a timely SSI app and follow up for them. One generous family member might deposit the amount of the house payment and utility bills into the checking account every month.
My comment was I just wouldn't give them a 100K lifestyle, they didn't make good money decisions when times were good, I wouldn't expect to suddenly start under such dire circumstances.

As to your family if you all are good communicators I would have a face to face without the affected family present. Try to get some numbers and try to agree on a list of Must haves, house, food, gas, cell phones nice to haves, a restaurant meal ,cable and a list of don't need it at this time...new clothes, stuff for the house and work your way down by how much money everyone is comfortable contributing. This will give the hurting family some dignity relieve some pressure over monthly bills and a chance for them to figure whats really important to them. As far as the kids in college the family needs to work things out for themselves....it won't be easy they might be running half a dozen cars and have a 300 or 400 hundred dollar a month cell phone bill. Deferrals are common in colleges with family crisis like this and would stop a lot of the money bleeding.

Good luck, but always keep in mind this could permanent for this family and you need to temper your desire to help with your own well being.

 

[kcowan]

If you can get all of the family who is contributing to agree to do something like this>
Draw up a contract that states in order to receive any assistance he has to do the following: 1) get older kids home now, take a semester off and get a job and/or go to local school and live at home, 2) remove kids from private school and put in public. Etc.....
Not really any different than the requirements banks put on someone with bad debt to get a loan.

+1
Give them 6 months to live in denial (have to be reasonable), then set out the many conditions until/if he returns to normal. If you don't do it now, it will be harder later.

 

[ivinsfan]

+1
Give them 6 months to live in denial (have to be reasonable), then set out the many conditions until/if he returns to normal. If you don't do it now, it will be harder later.

Don't you think giving the amount needed for necessities without writing down all the things you won't pay for is a little bit kinder? In your scenario you are the bad guy taking thing away from them. The other method lets them kind of figure out on their own what they need to cut. They have a roof over their heads, gas, food and they get to make the choices which gives them a better chance of long term success and leaves them some dignity.

 

[SomedaySoon]

Don't you think giving the amount needed for necessities without writing down all the things you won't pay for is a little bit kinder? In your scenario you are the bad guy taking thing away from them. The other method lets them kind of figure out on their own what they need to cut. They have a roof over their heads, gas, food and they get to make the choices which gives them a better chance of long term success and leaves them some dignity.

You are assuming they know what are necessities. Apparently having an emergency fund is certainly not a necessity to them. I also was helping family get over a financial emergency (ie paying their overdue bills). I stopped when I realized there was nothing they did not consider a need. They needed some time to get humbler and realize they could not afford the lifestyle they had grown accustomed to. Having the electricity turned off for a day also made their teenage children realize there was a problem.

 

[Texas Proud]

You are assuming they know what are necessities. Apparently having an emergency fund is certainly not a necessity to them. I also was helping family get over a financial emergency (ie paying their overdue bills). I stopped when I realized there was nothing they did not consider a need. They needed some time to get humbler and realize they could not afford the lifestyle they had grown accustomed to. Having the electricity turned off for a day also made their teenage children realize there was a problem.

This has nothing to do with the OP... but where I used to work the boss was very religious and would help out people in his church... one day he was complaining about this woman he had helped by buying stuff for her... a month later she asked for more.... and then again... he blew a gasket when her washer broke and she asked him to buy her a new one!!!

Some people are really good at getting others to pay their way... you know, make you feel sad for them.... they are users....

As I said, I do not put the BIL in this category as they paid their own way for their life style.... but things have changed and so will their life style...

 

[ivinsfan]

You are assuming they know what are necessities. Apparently having an emergency fund is certainly not a necessity to them. I also was helping family get over a financial emergency (ie paying their overdue bills). I stopped when I realized there was nothing they did not consider a need. They needed some time to get humbler and realize they could not afford the lifestyle they had grown accustomed to. Having the electricity turned off for a day also made their teenage children realize there was a problem.

Well, the person giving the money would decide what is a necessity and the receiving family needs to take it from there. Just give the set amount of money without getting into disagreements about this.Going over someones spending line by line and saying something is wasteful, just makes people defensive and stuck in their position.This turns the giving person into the "bad guy" which really ticks you off when you are saving someones bacon.

 

[INTJ10]

The sad reality is that this is part of our culture so the situation isn't all that unusual. According to the article below, 1/4 of high income people live paycheck to paycheck. I wish I could think of a good solution. Obviously, the problem to be solved is changing the behavior mindset about money. My only advice is to that any help should go towards helping to solving the problem. Easy to say but hard to do based on my personal experiences.


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The number increases to roughly one out of every three for households earning $50,000 to $100,000 and one of every two for those taking in $49,999 and below.

 

[fritz]

DawgMan - Have somewhat walked a mile in your shoes with family in the past (and still do with a couple siblings). It was tragedy for siblings that exposed the lack of sound financial planning. One really made the effort to turn things around earlier in life and the other still hasn't figured it out. Helped both financially throughout the years, but stopped financial aid to the one who won't help themself (still gets assistance from family members). Over the years, it "was" like watching a car drive off a cliff. Always in trouble, and never any plan to resolve issues other than money.

As a family, we are all still friendly to each other, but the hopeless one is approaching the age where gainful employment is no longer an option (doesn't work now) - living with one of us is not desirable either (but does now - temporarily living with one of us and making life miserable for that family).

I know things unfortunately will have to change for your SIL/BIL, but doesn't appear that they have a sound financial plan/plan of action - other than getting $100K of family money to continue support for their current lifestyle - and "maybe" getting out of that wheelchair and getting a six? figure job again (hard to pull off when you're already in your mid 50s and in a limited field of work).

Giving financial assistance (never have been paid back and didn't expect it) has never solved the problem in our family, but taking control of your own situation and turning things around did for one of us (and the other will always be a burden).

 

[HFWR]

It's one thing to help someone get past a "temporary" setback. Having "helped" my ex-DW (the D doesn't stand for "dear"...) many times while my son was young, it soon became obvious that the problem wasn't temporary...

 

[Teacher Terry]

Also he won't qualify for SSDI unless a doctor says he is expected to have a permanent disability that will last more then 12 months. If the doc says he might get better in 12 months he will not be eligible until that time has passed and he is not better.

 

[Sunset]

Possibly I missed the cause of the accident, but any chance of insurance money from that ?
Even if it was his wife that pushed him off the roof, it could possibly qualify.

 

[bclover]

Fast forward today... this accident to my BIL has totally exposed their financial situation. They have some, but little NW in home, $15k in credit card debt, no savings/RE acct. Large family on my DW side and we will all be contributing $$ to bridge the next 12 -18 months until we know more. Both my BIL and SIL have their head in the sand and think everything will just work out. Even if he gets 100% back, they are driving off a financial cliff and refuse to see it regardless of any sound family advice. Frustrating, heart breaking none the less, but this is probably more typical than any of us want to believe.

A few thoughts rumbling around the rock I call a head.
Some times falling off a cliff is a good thing. I don't know folks like this but my brother is a recovery drug addict (10years clean) and fully admits that he finally decided to get his act together when he fell of his cliff and hit rock bottom. when my dad tossed him out and no other family would bail him out, he found himself sleeping in a garbage bin, that's when his Epiphany.

Maybe forcing their head out of the sand would do more good.

On a general note, I give very few folks "cash" gifts. I have a lot of nieces and nephews that are college students so I'm always sending food or restaurant gift cards.
My elder relatives are all on ss and medicare and don't spend much.