Middle, Upper Middle Class Distinction for Retirees

[Spanky]

Buffet's house is usually pictured from the front.

From that angle, it does appear to be a modest home.

But an aerial photo shows essentially another full-sized home at the back.

There's nothing "lower-middle-class" about where he lives.

Yup - definitely not lower-middle class.

He also has an expensive house in Laguna Beach

 

[aja8888]

Yup - definitely not lower-middle class.

He also has an expensive house in Laguna Beach

Hey, the guy is still working and hasn't had time to de-clutter yet, so give hem a break.

 

[dunkelblau]

I have come to the conclusion that if you have ~$2.5m in NW NOT including your main living property. With a 4% WR ($100k PA) That would put you in the Middle to Upper Middle C!&$$ . Add SS and Pensions and it would put you squarely into the Upper Middle. JMHO I could be wrong.

Perhaps the weight analogy would be less controversial? That would be USD net worth ex home of six figures for leanFIRE, seven for FIRE, and eight for fatFIRE. This seems to be roughly how the kids divide things on reddit.

 

[Out of Steam]

By the standards of someone with billions, Warren Buffet's house is modest. It wouldn't be out of place as the house of an successful orthodontist or the president of a local bank.

 

[Winemaker]

IIRC, the house in Laguna Beach was where his wife lived.

 

[USGrant1962]

Of course the IRS thinks something around $200k for MFJ is upper middle class, because that's where most tax deductions/credits/benefits have phased out. And some surtaxes start to phase in and your are probably exposed to AMT.

In the old tax code, at ~$200K MFJ you've lost:

• ACA subsidies
• American Opportunity tax credit
• Child credit
• College interest deduction
• IRA deduction
• Rental losses
• Roth contributions
• Savings bond exclusion
• Tuition deduction

And you are phasing in or approaching loss of adoption benefits, loss of exemptions, 3.8% investment surtax, Medicare surcharge, and Pease.

 

[jazz4cash]

According to this article you only need 375k in retirement to be middle class.

Nowadays, to sustain a “comfortable” and “middle-class” lifestyle in retirement, a retiree will need about $375,000 in savings. The reality is that most folks fall far short of that number.

Amazingly incoherent article. It's Ms Gilarduci (again). I gotta read up on this scheme she's hatched. Maybe things are really not so bad after all if it only takes 375k.

 

[aaronc879]

According to this article you only need 375k in retirement to be middle class.

Nowadays, to sustain a “comfortable” and “middle-class” lifestyle in retirement, a retiree will need about $375,000 in savings. The reality is that most folks fall far short of that number.

$375K would be plenty for me to retire on if I retired at full retirement age(65). However, I do not plan to work that long so I have more years to cover and therefore need more than $375K.

 

[brucethebroker]

I googled and found this:

https://phoenixmi.com/wp-content/up...et-Sizing-Update-and-Millionaires-Ranking.pdf

The report uses the term affluent instead of middle class. Here is their cutoff for the different segments (on page 4 of report):

Near Affluent $100k - $249k Investable Assets
Lower Mass Affluent ($250k - $499k) Investable Assets
Upper Mass Affluent: $500k - $999k Investable Assets

Investable Assets includes educational/custodial accounts, individually owned retirement accounts, stocks, options, bonds, mutual funds, managed accounts, hedge funds, structured products, ETFs, cash accounts, annuities, and cash value of life insurance policies

But we don't want no stinkin' landlords, right? Haha! Nice try, pinheads!!

 

[brucethebroker]

For your enjoyment retiree rockers: Bob Seger.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxuCvhObKGA

 

[kcowan]

IIRC, the house in Laguna Beach was where his wife lived.

I recall he was planning to sell it because of the outrageous land value...

 

[haha]

It's amusing that for a thread with so many "I don't care" responses, there sure are a lot of responses! Why so much interest in a ho-hum topic?

Doth we protest too much? Could it be that, while most of us believe class distinctions are not important, each of us is prey to a sort of naughty pleasure in privately knowing he is just the tiniest bit "better" than the next guy?

In our defense, does a bit of covert vanity mean we are bad people? No, it only means we are people.

Hierarchies are not even limited to primates, let alone people, and no matter how much people like to deny that they are interested in things like this, until they are underground we are. People lie about everything, and often have no inkling that they are in fact misrepresenting the truth of their own lives. This is just one more thing to obfuscate in order to stay comfortable. Even lobsters create hierarchies.

Ha

 

[Nemo2]

Even lobsters create hierarchies.

Jordan? Jordan Peterson, is that you?

 

[bada bing]

Hierarchies are not even limited to primates, let alone people, and no matter how much people like to deny that they are interested in things like this, until they are underground they are. People lie about everything, and often have no inkling that they are in fact misrepresenting the truth of their own lives. This is just one more thing to obfuscate in order to stay comfortable. Even lobsters create hierarchies.

Ha

+1

This thread is funny in that maybe 1/2 the thread is people caring enough to
post they don't care. And that by not caring, inferring they are slightly better
than those that do.

The way incomes are currently distributed in the USA, the top quintile lines up
pretty well with a level of assets that allows for improving financial conditions.
The top quintile has been experiencing income growth, everyone else, not so
much. In the current environment, capital is gaining advantage on labor and
brains on brawn. That (for me) is the reason to work for assets - both financial
and intellectual - that happen to put me into the top quintile. I want to tag
along for the ride with the group experiencing improvement. Not having my single wide
broken into while I'm away at my job at the gas station is just a side benefit.

 

[haha]

Jordan? Jordan Peterson, is that you?

LOL, not me, he outranks me. But as you saw, I got this delicious tidbit from him.

Ha

 

[unclemick]

Okay. Okay. Where/who provided the - holes in their socks, so rich they don't care what they drive, home is relatively modest, etc. Was that 'Millionaire Next Door' ? or of whom am I paraphrasing?



Left handed INTJ here. Wear bib overalls or grunge flannels(think Seattle) or 'Beach Boy sandals' to City or Farm just to 'gauge the looks'. Grin. A little ER ego tripping on my part.

heh heh heh - I either have no class or such ER class that I have joined the 'above and beyond' crowd. So how many have I misquoted?

 

[Freedom56]

People would be surprised to see how little the average household has saved for retirement how much debt seniors are carrying into their 60's. The problem is a lot of people believe that "upper middle class" means owning expensive cars, nice homes, and dressing in nice clothes. They live above their means and end up with little savings and debt as they age. So the cut-off numbers mentioned are not that far off.
Our neighbors thought we were struggling until they found out we had zero debt and retired early and own two homes free and clear. This was just because we didn't change our cars every 2-3 years and have a gardener cut our grass, or a pool man maintain our pool. We didn't have boats or class A RVs like they did. The reality is that being upper middle class has more to do with your education, your actual net worth and quality of life. I would rather live comfortably under the radar than show off fancy cars and designer clothes. As an example, last month my wife and I were waiting for our return flight to Los Angeles from Ft Lauderdale. We were wearing jeans and sneakers. Nothing wrong with that and we are both in very good shape as we train regularly. A woman who was dressed well, with nice shoes, and fake LV handbag, started staring at my wife with that condescending look. When they were calling us for boarding, she stepped in front of us and started heading to the counter. We thought she was rude. The airline person at the counter looked at her ticket at stated, we are calling mint class (Jet Blue Business Class) not coach and refused her entry. I just rolled my eyes and my wife was laughing. She became angry and had to step to the side. She watched us being welcomed by the Jet Blue representative and head for our seats. We both had Jet Blue Mint Suite seats booked. Each seat has the same width as 3 seats in coach, with a lie flat bed, satellite TV, high speed internet, and a sliding door for additional privacy. As the lady entered the plane, the flight attendant held her back and told her to wait as he was serving the welcome drinks to the Mint Class passengers. The look on that ladies face as she passed our Suite seats and saw us seated was priceless. Appearances are not always what they seem.

 

[USGrant1962]

People would be surprised to see how little the average household has saved for retirement how much debt seniors are carrying into their 60's. The problem is a lot of people believe that "upper middle class" means owning expensive cars, nice homes, and dressing in nice clothes. They live above their means and end up with little savings and debt as they age. So the cut-off numbers mentioned are not that far off.
Our neighbors thought we were struggling until they found out we had zero debt and retired early and own two homes free and clear. This was just because we didn't change our cars every 2-3 years and have a gardener cut our grass, or a pool man maintain our pool. We didn't have boats or class A RVs like they did. The reality is that being upper middle class has more to do with your education, your actual net worth and quality of life. I would rather live comfortably under the radar than show off fancy cars and designer clothes. As an example, last month my wife and I were waiting for our return flight to Los Angeles from Ft Lauderdale. We were wearing jeans and sneakers. Nothing wrong with that and we are both in very good shape as we train regularly. A woman who was dressed well, with nice shoes, and fake LV handbag, started staring at my wife with that condescending look. When they were calling us for boarding, she stepped in front of us and started heading to the counter. We thought she was rude. The airline person at the counter looked at her ticket at stated, we are calling mint class (Jet Blue Business Class) not coach and refused her entry. I just rolled my eyes and my wife was laughing. She became angry and had to step to the side. She watched us being welcomed by the Jet Blue representative and head for our seats. We both had Jet Blue Mint Suite seats booked. Each seat has the same width as 3 seats in coach, with a lie flat bed, satellite TV, high speed internet, and a sliding door for additional privacy. As the lady entered the plane, the flight attendant held her back and told her to wait as he was serving the welcome drinks to the Mint Class passengers. The look on that ladies face as she passed our Suite seats and saw us seated was priceless. Appearances are not always what they seem.

Great story. As a frequent flyer when working, I always walked through first/business class thinking "these people fly too much". And when I was in first/business I thought the same...

 

[Freedom56]

Great story. As a frequent flyer when working, I always walked through first/business class thinking "these people fly too much". And when I was in first/business I thought the same...

When working, our company had a generous policy of allowing us to upgrade to business/first class if the flights were longer than 4 hours. So trans-continental, trans-Atlantic/Pacific qualified for upgrades. I flew a lot for work as 80% of our business was international. I used my points to get business class tickets for our vacations. Then during retirement, we just decided to apply the same rules except I shop around for discount business class tickets and we can be more flexible with the dates. It mitigates a lot of health problems (back and leg pain) when you have a bed to sleep in during a 12-14 hour flight. Even a trans-continental red-eye flight is nice when you have a bed. Plus you can't take your money with you. I also had some of my best meals on trans-Atlantic/Pacific flights. Some airlines have pretty good food and nice food presentation.

 

[USGrant1962]

When working, our company had a generous policy of allowing us to upgrade to business/first class if the flights were longer than 4 hours.

We had to be over 7 hours, overseas, overnight, and work the day of arrival for business class, but unfortunately I did that a few times. It seriously cured me from doing red-eyes anywhere.

 

[HFWR]

It's well known that the devil tailors each experience to the individual sinner's dislikes, which the devil knows even better than the sinner does.



In other words, you may yet be surprised

Aka “w*rk”...

 

[YVRRocketSurgery]

ShokWave, I still have absolutely no idea of the purpose of your thread.

From the title and first post, it looked like you want to classify people, for some reason. But you are saying others are getting hung up on your use of class, even though that's all you talked about in that post.

Then you said it was to help with a housing decision. I'll repeat for a third time that it makes no sense to obfuscate that decision by trying to put yourself into a category. You haven't explained why you can't just make it a decision based on your finances and desires.

Now in your post this morning you still want to label and/or categorize people. I'm not hung up on the word "class", I'm hung up on the whole concept that you are wanting to put people in buckets. Why? Why is this important?

Obviously one shouldn't feel the need to label people to try to make you feel better about yourself.

However, a lot of public policy decisions are made to support the "middle class" or support a "middle-class lifestyle" in terms of taxation and benefits. There's kind of value in defining what is middle class. Do you base it on employment income, overall income, assets/net wealth, etc? I suspect analysis between people in their working years and retirees is an interesting dichotomy where working people are likely higher on the spectrum in terms of income but lower in terms of assets while retirees are potentially the opposite.