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Old 02-20-2017, 08:54 AM   #21
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Okay, my opinion isn't going to be popular I'm sure, but I think it's easy to assume that every person graduating from college is doing so with mountains of debt they can't escape from so I'm going to mention a few things.

1. Seven in 10 seniors (68%) who graduated from public and nonprofit colleges in 2015 had student loan debt, with an average of $30,100 per borrower. So, of the students that don't graduate without any debt, the average person owes the cost of a new well optioned Toyota Camry. That's not exactly the 6-figure debt burdens that the articles on the subject would lead you to believe everyone has.

2. That average includes people who decide to go to the most expensive of those schools just because "they want to". Let's be honest here - the overwhelming majority of students at the top 20 schools won't get anything extra from being at a top 20 school than a top 200 school (or really any accredited school). Most aren't competing for an elite MBA program or law school etc and aren't fighting for one of the rare amazing pay jobs with just a Bachelor's degree. As such, they're paying extra to say they went to that school and nothing else - i.e. throwing money away.

3. Let's now look at "normal" kids at "normal" colleges. A friends kid did decent in high school (grades high enough to justify going to college but not enough to get a full ride or anything). As such, she qualifies for the "everyone gets this" scholarship here (HOPE scholarship). She was (like most kids) lazy and didn't even apply to any of the other hundreds of scholarships she might have gotten to help out more, but still will end up needing ~$7k per semester after scholarships to cover everything (room and board, tuition, fees, etc). In order to afford to have $0 in student loans, assuming she had no assistance from her parents at all AND that she didn't get any other scholarship or grant etc for the rest of her college tuition, AND assuming she could earn nothing more than minimum wage, she'd need to work less than 2,000 hours each year to graduate without any debt.

Now, I went to college in the mid-90's, and then went back to school in 2011. In the 90's I was working 30 hours/week at my part time job (fast food) making more than minimum wage and managed to go to class, get good grades, and have a social life (I was in a fraternity back then). When I went back to school in 2011-2013 I was working 40-60 hours per week I managed to do well in all my classes and at work while sacrificing most of my social life to accomplish my educational goals.

So yes, college is more expensive now than it was 20-40-60-100 years ago, even when adjusted for inflation. However, I don't believe the costs are some crisis that needs to be addressed with more than "don't be stupid about where and why you're spending your money" coupled with "if you want to avoid debt be smart about earning and spending your money and you can" for most college students.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:47 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by exnavynuke View Post
1. Seven in 10 seniors (68%) who graduated from public and nonprofit colleges in 2015 had student loan debt, with an average of $30,100 per borrower. So, of the students that don't graduate without any debt, the average person owes the cost of a new well optioned Toyota Camry. That's not exactly the 6-figure debt burdens that the articles on the subject would lead you to believe everyone has.
On the same site, it talks about debt, not just student loan debt, but all debt. My daughter has a car loan. I expect she also doesn't pay off her credit cards in full every month. She has debt. Some of her friends bought homes. They have debt, too.

From the web site https://studentloanhero.com/student-...bt-statistics/
Quote:
About 40 percent of the $1 trillion student loan debt was used to finance graduate and professional degrees.

Combined undergraduate and graduate debt by degree:

MBA = $42,000 (11% of graduate degrees)
Master of Education = $50,879 (16%)
Master of Science = $50,400 (18%)
Master of Arts = $58,539 (8%)
Law = $140,616 (4%)
Medicine and health sciences = $161,772 (5%)
Clearly, as these student loan debt statistics show, the cost of attending college is becoming a growing burden for a huge portion of Americans.
So while that 40% does include undergraduate loans, it also includes a bunch of graduate/professional school loans, too.

And the high school students who didn't go to college, what do they get? Nothing. Their government has failed them.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:53 AM   #23
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Let's be honest here - the overwhelming majority of students at the top 20 schools won't get anything extra from being at a top 20 school than a top 200 school (or really any accredited school). Most aren't competing for an elite MBA program or law school etc and aren't fighting for one of the rare amazing pay jobs with just a Bachelor's degree. As such, they're paying extra to say they went to that school and nothing else - i.e. throwing money away.
+1

During the 15+ years I spent working for my previous full-time employer, I was responsible for interviewing scores of people for many different positions. I don't remember ever rejecting a candidate because they did not graduate from a Top 100 school, nor do I remember ever strongly favoring a candidate because they did attend a Top 100 school. What always mattered the most were things like:
  • relevant skills and experience
  • grade-point average (both overall and just in their major)
  • achievements such as awards, scholarships, promotions
  • and most importantly, the person's ability to communicate effectively and professionally and to think on their feet during an interview.
In my experience, which college you graduated from was way down the list of determining factors. It may have made a small difference once or twice, when we liked two candidates and had to choose one or the other. Otherwise it hardly mattered at all, and thus, IMHO, spending vast sums of money to attend a gold-plated university is generally quite a bad investment.
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Old 02-20-2017, 09:59 AM   #24
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+1

During the 15+ years I spent working for my previous full-time employer, I was responsible for interviewing scores of people for many different positions. I don't remember ever rejecting a candidate because they did not graduate from a Top 100 school, nor do I remember ever strongly favoring a candidate because they did attend a Top 100 school. What always mattered the most were things like:
  • relevant skills and experience
  • grade-point average (both overall and just in their major)
  • achievements such as awards, scholarships, promotions
  • and most importantly, the person's ability to communicate effectively and professionally and to think on their feet during an interview.
In my experience, which college you graduated from was way down the list of determining factors. It may have made a small difference once or twice, when we liked two candidates and had to choose one or the other. Otherwise it hardly mattered at all, and thus, IMHO, spending vast sums of money to attend a gold-plated university is generally quite a bad investment.
When I started work at a oil majors research lab most of the folks were from local schools, not top 100 schools (for example except for me none were from the old big 10)
Secondly the school where you get your terminal degree is more important than where you get an intermediate degree (i.e. if you have a masters that school is more important than where you got your Bachelors)
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:11 AM   #25
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I will ask where your list is of the rankings....


Also, why limit it to the top 100.... I would bet that the majority of people on this forum did not graduate from that list... maybe we can do a poll...
+1

Some of us (like me), graduated at or near the top of our class at the School of Hard Knocks.

I recall having failed a few courses along the way....
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:25 AM   #26
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Let's be real, asking a 17/18 year old to do the ROI on a $100,000+ education with no do overs and possibly life ruining debt levels isn't exactly fair. I came from an excellent high school (nothing expectional but I certainly was ahead of many of my peers) and other than my parents I didn't really receive any help with college. I was at one point getting 5-10 college brochures a day with amazing photos of the campus and everything around it. However nobody (outside of my parents) said what's the return on your investment for this education? It was always you will go to college so pick one (military being the only exception). I chose accounting and I chose a slightly more expensive school that I could graduate earlier from which was a net benefit in total cost vs income. I had a manageable debt load and make excellent money for the area. However I know several people who followed the college "advice" and have crippling debt loads of $100,000+ and are spending upwards of 75% of their take-home pay on loans (minimums, not extra payments). Under any other circumstance that would be terms for bankruptcy but in this case we just shrug and say they deserve it?

And regarding average debt, c'mon people. If 1 person graduates with $120,000 in debt and 3 graduate debt free sure the average is a manageable $30,000 but in actuality 3 people ascended to middle/upper middle class(typically) and one person is in such crushing debt that they may not ever climb out of it. How is that exactly fair?
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:45 AM   #27
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[...] How is that exactly fair?
But I read around here that Life is Not Fair.

One could suggest that no one should be allowed to borrow more than a maximum for an undergraduate education. Say $30K. That would prevent some folks from over borrowing, wouldn't it?

Or do you have another proposal?
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:10 PM   #28
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The student loan debacle could be easily solved within the free market system by allowing student loan debtors to declare bankruptcy just as other debtors can. In short order, lenders would become much more selective about to whom and where they're making loans. Borrowers whose burden is too unmanageable and painful could get out of some portion of the debt through a court administered bankruptcy plan, but would have to live with the consequences of a bankruptcy on their record.

I think that within a few years, the average quality of student loans would be increased dramatically and the abundance of snake oil loan salespeople at private, for-profit schools would decline. We might also see a slowdown in tuition increases when fewer students are being offered easy, no-questions-asked loans.
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:40 PM   #29
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1. Seven in 10 seniors (68%) who graduated from public and nonprofit colleges in 2015 had student loan debt, with an average of $30,100 per borrower. So, of the students that don't graduate without any debt, the average person owes the cost of a new well optioned Toyota Camry. That's not exactly the 6-figure debt burdens that the articles on the subject would lead you to believe everyone has.
It has been a few years since I told our kids we would pay $x per year for their college. Go where you want but that is it. I also told them "Coming out of college with $20-25k in debt is not all that bad. It is (was) the average cost of a car. The education will last a lifetime. The car, maybe 5-8 years. Where would you rather spend the money?"

DS#1 went to school on the 5yr plan, then later paid is way for a Master's Degree and Teaching cert. He is now a teacher. DS#2 went to CC for a semester and then enlisted. He is 18 yrs in now. His GI bill will pay either him, or his wife or his daughter for their college years. Not a bad deal, really!

Debt is not bad, if used for the right things and in the right amount. And the Service is a good alternative for those who follow another calling. I am very proud of both of our DS's and the vocational choices they made.

On another note, I wonder if there are any studies showing average salaries, say 10-15 years out of college. while comparing say a 25th ranked University against say a 150th or 200th ranked one. Except for a few outstanding grads, I'd think they were closer than we think.
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:15 PM   #30
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The student loan debacle could be easily solved within the free market system by allowing student loan debtors to declare bankruptcy just as other debtors can. In short order, lenders would become much more selective about to whom and where they're making loans. Borrowers whose burden is too unmanageable and painful could get out of some portion of the debt through a court administered bankruptcy plan, but would have to live with the consequences of a bankruptcy on their record.

I think that within a few years, the average quality of student loans would be increased dramatically and the abundance of snake oil loan salespeople at private, for-profit schools would decline. We might also see a slowdown in tuition increases when fewer students are being offered easy, no-questions-asked loans.
+1
Supply & Demand 101.
Gov't interfered with it causing this problem.

Interestingly enough I heard being proposed on a news channel, that the current system should be scrapped. Instead of charging interest, that the GOVT should charge a fixed percentage of income for a fixed period of time. That way if you have a good or great economic outcome you pay more, than those who may not be so lucky.

GOVT can solve all.

I see lots of credit reports (landlord). Student loan debt burdens are huge for these kids! The other devastating credit mar are medical bills. But that is a whole other topic.
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:31 PM   #31
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Interestingly enough I heard being proposed on a news channel, that the current system should be scrapped. Instead of charging interest, that the GOVT should charge a fixed percentage of income for a fixed period of time. That way if you have a good or great economic outcome you pay more, than those who may not be so lucky.
This is what the PSLF (Public Service Load Forgiveness) program does. The problem is that it incentivizes students to take out bigger and bigger loans, then to figure out how to reduce income afterwards in order to stiff the lenders.

It also incentivizes public service employers to pay lower wages.

An egregious example is a physician making $300K+ a year in the "public service" sector not paying back the full amount of their loans with interest. People do things like keep their income and tax returns separate from their spouses, so the family has plenty of income while the debtor looks poor.

So I wonder how to prevent folks from taking more than the typical advantage of such programs. Perhaps limiting the loan amount covered by the PSLF program would be a start.
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Old 02-20-2017, 01:58 PM   #32
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The student loan debacle could be easily solved within the free market system by allowing student loan debtors to declare bankruptcy just as other debtors can. In short order, lenders would become much more selective about to whom and where they're making loans. Borrowers whose burden is too unmanageable and painful could get out of some portion of the debt through a court administered bankruptcy plan, but would have to live with the consequences of a bankruptcy on their record.

I think that within a few years, the average quality of student loans would be increased dramatically and the abundance of snake oil loan salespeople at private, for-profit schools would decline. We might also see a slowdown in tuition increases when fewer students are being offered easy, no-questions-asked loans.

This would only work for the non gvmt guaranteed loans....

The other problem is that it would probably dry up any private lending as almost any student is a bad risk... sure, some of them are much worse than others, but since (a WAG) maybe 50% of the people drop out, going to a university is not a sign that they will make it...

I think that making the schools have some skin in the game should be started... make them keep say 10% of the outstanding loan amount set aside for any future losses.... maybe they pay 25% of the loan loss... those private schools pushing bad loans on bad students would stop right away... and as we know, most of those schools are scams anyhow....
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:18 PM   #33
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Too much money made available drives up the cost of education.

Solution? More money. Money can solve everything. More, more, more.
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Old 02-20-2017, 02:58 PM   #34
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+1

Some of us (like me), graduated at or near the top of our class at the School of Hard Knocks.

I recall having failed a few courses along the way....
That's not failure, that's gaining good judgement (see my sig line).
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Old 02-20-2017, 03:07 PM   #35
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Let's be real, asking a 17/18 year old to do the ROI on a $100,000+ education with no do overs and possibly life ruining debt levels isn't exactly fair.
That's why people have parents, guidance councilors, etc. If they aren't mature or experienced enough to know if borrowing the money is a good or bad idea, take advice from (hopefully) wiser heads.

Quote:
And regarding average debt, c'mon people. If 1 person graduates with $120,000 in debt and 3 graduate debt free sure the average is a manageable $30,000 but in actuality 3 people ascended to middle/upper middle class(typically) and one person is in such crushing debt that they may not ever climb out of it. How is that exactly fair?
I would assume that the person who accumulated $120K in debt was going to law school or med school or something that would result in a salary that would equate to an average student's $30K debt, as far as percentage of income after graduation. If they accumulated that kind of debt getting a degree (even a PhD) in Sacred Music or 15th Century English Literature or anything else that results in a $30K/year salary, then yes, they deserve it and it's fair. People are allowed to make choices, even stupid ones. I've made many, and I own them all. You can't legislate morality or common sense.
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Old 02-20-2017, 03:13 PM   #36
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I grew up in the rural south- my parents were the first in their families to graduate from college. Around my town, graduating from any college was a plus- no one really talked about Ivy league schools, and to be honest, I never even considered it. I don't even know which schools are on the top 100 list, and we aren't pushing our kids towards those. In fact we've saved enough for an in-state education and after that money is gone, they are on their own.

I help hire people for my mega corp, and I rarely notice the school applicants graduate from. I look at job experience, character, drive, and ability to work with other people. I have never given a recent grad extra consideration because of an impressive school, but I have given them extra marks for working their way through school and keeping up their grades, This shows they are disciplined and can manage their time. I am sure there have been applicants who spent a year or two at a community college to keep the costs down. It never appears on their resume, because only the school you graduate from shows up on your diploma, but I wouldn't care if it did. Seems like a perfectly acceptable money saving strategy to me.

regarding 2 and 3, work really hard to make yourself as indispensable as you can be, while making sure your job skills are up to date and marketable in case you want to or have to leave.
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Old 02-20-2017, 03:26 PM   #37
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For those who are actively involved in researching current schools, costs, ratings, and in the interest if the student, I would recommend this website.

https://www.niche.com/colleges/?degree=4-year&sort=best

My own alma mater is #7 in the initial list, but that was long ago...

The link is infinitely sortable, by $$$, rating, type of degree,and availability of scholarships as well as featuring actual student ratings and experiences.
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Old 02-20-2017, 03:34 PM   #38
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There are several things I did to try and increase my odds of financial success (all depends on your definition).
1) Read a couple books on wealth while in high school.
2) Learned that people with degrees earn a lot more on average than those without.
3) The books also named a few professions that earned more on average than others.
4) Took an elective accounting class in high school and the concepts came easy to me.

I lived on my own since a junior in high school and I figured the only way I could pay for college, was to join the military, so I did. I took night classes at a college that had a satellite campus on our base and saved my money. Worked hard to get good grades and had a couple offers from the big accounting firms before graduating. I also spoke to some older guys that I thought were good with money. They were all consistent with their recommendations, 1) max out your 401k, 2) keep debt to a minimum and 3) focus on building your net worth. All were good building blocks.
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Old 02-20-2017, 03:51 PM   #39
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this thread seems to have jumped the tracks from giving advice to millennials, to explaining why life is so hard for millennials.

My advice:
1.Don't go to college unless you think you are going to pop out of the other end with some skills that will make you more employable than if you did not go to college.

2. If you do go to college, have a start-to-finish plan that includes a couple years of local community college work. Make sure that credits will carry over to your ultimate school where you 'll get your BS.

3. If you must borrow money, borrow the least amount. Do not use the easy loan money to provide you with more life style than you absolutely need. That means cheap apartment, cheap or better yet no car unless absolutely necessary. Work as much as you can to minimize what you have to borrow. Avoid debt like the plague it is.

4. When you graduate, get a job. Live within, or below your means. Do not use your credit cards to "afford" more lifestyle options.

5. Do whatever you have to do to live below your means. Roommates, live with your parents if they'll have you ( and if you do, respect that they are doing you a big favor. Pay rent, and help with chores, and do not disrupt their lives by coming and going at all hours)

6. Put money away in IRAs ASAP. Participate in any employer sponsored plans to put money away.

7. Be a valuable employee. Work hard, be dependable. Don't be afraid to keep an eye out for a better opportunity if you think there is one.

8. don't allow yourself to focus on "how much easier it was for the previous generation." That won't help you. There will be success stories from your generation. Do what you have to do to be one of them.
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Old 02-20-2017, 04:40 PM   #40
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2. If you do go to college, have a start-to-finish plan that includes a couple years of local community college work. Make sure that credits will carry over to your ultimate school where you 'll get your BS.
In California most of the public schools have transfer agreements with the community colleges. It is actually a law here most the 4 year schools have to follow:

"The law requires that UC and CSU schools set up a specific path of requirements that, if fulfilled by the community college student, will lead directly to admission to that school, subject to enrollment limitations and special circumstances. As a result, 8 out of 10 California community college students are accepted to 4-year California colleges and universities through a transfer."

I think Berkeley and UCLA are exempt, though Berkeley does accept many transfer students from the CCs.
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