MMM Buys Brand New Nissan Leaf; "An Experiment"

[thefinancebuff]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry1 I'm fine with him buying a new car. I think on balance it is consistent with his proclaimed beliefs. The only thing I would like to validate is that he includes the cost of the car in his budget. If so, he'd be over $25K per year in annual expenses.

It's not going to be included in his budget because he already said he's placing the vehicle into business.

[purplesky]

Mr. Money mustache is a fake early retirement blogger. He is a Ferb.

Mr. Money mustache is just a scam artist and he is encouraging the millennial generation to not work and just sponge off other people.

It's hilarious to hear some 30 something millennial talk about how stressful work Was during a ten-year career while they saved $1 million. The terrible commute. The stress from other coworkers and busy projects and deadlines.

I just really want to hang out at the park. Just throw my frisbee and do free stuff and live off $30,000 a year for the rest of my life because I know Vanguard will take care of me.

Hey look there's a unicorn!!!!!!

[JoeWras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplesky It's hilarious to hear some 30 something millennial talk about how stressful work Was during a ten-year career while they saved $1 million. The terrible commute. The stress from other coworkers and busy projects and deadlines.

Ha ha, I hear ya.

Kind of off topic... But my dad taught me a lesson the old fashioned way about this.

I started working (I was about 6 months in) and was bitching and griping about traffic, co-workers, etc. I mentioned the traffic thing a few too many times. I was in a smaller area of the South, where traffic clearly was not the same as Chicago (where dad worked).

He rarely got mad at me as an adult, but I pushed him over the line. He blew a gasket, raised his voice, swore a little and told me to never talk to him about traffic again.

The old fashioned method stuck with me. Later that year, as I drove on the Dan Ryan expressway while visiting, I realized just how right he was, and how many sacrifices he made for me. I was grateful to have the parents I had, and I (mostly) stopped bitching to them about my cushy engineering job.

[purplesky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Music Lover Perhaps not as much, but on this site there are many examples of frugal people who have retired well off and have stated that they have a hard time loosening the purse strings.

That pretty much describes the millionaire next-door. People in the middle class to higher middle-class income range can easily become a millionaire by living a frugal lifestyle and saving money like a MaxSaver.

The millionaire next-door type saver is not going to all the sudden go crazy and spend all their money when they retire. It's a lifestyle choice that enable them to build wealth over a working career.

[Big_Hitter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplesky Hey look there's a unicorn farting rainbows!!!!!!

fify

[Bestwifeever]

I think everyone should enjoy his or her money whatever they call themselves. I actually am glad Pete (I guess that's who really bought the car?) bought the little car. I was thinking about how ironic and sort of sad it must be to live in his alterego/persona's world and have amassed all this money from "not working" and famously and publicly living frugally, and then not being able to enjoy it--what if Mrs Pete really really wanted to go to a Michelin three star for a special occasion and drop several hundred dollars on the best meal ever? Do they sneak in wearing Groucho glasses as a disguise? Do they have to invite someone else to talk about the blog or whatever to qualify the dinner as a "business expense"? What if little Pete doesn't want to go to a community college and then a state university and live at home--can he go to a small private liberal arts school? Anyone who lives in the public eye is going to be scrutinized but if you make money by preaching not working and penny pinching, when do you get to enjoy the results without feeling the need to discuss and justify it (as he apparently has with this little car)? I guess he doesn't want to turn off his base, but it is an ironic situation imo. Irony and pity, as someone famous but who never blogged once said.

[Chris7]

I don't think he is a fraud. He did live extremely frugally. He did save a lot of $. His savings and part-time tinkerings could have allowed him to do that for a very long time. He started a blog. His blog, which I don't believe he really thought it would, ended up becoming immensely successful. Now he has even more choices available to him. And good for him to be able to enjoy his success a bit.

[rodi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Running_Man The Colorado tax credit is refundable whether one has taxes or not. The Federal tax credit of $7,500 would require 80K in income to be taken which also would result in income taxable of $2,400 additional taxes to Colorado, unless that was already the amount of income the individual living on 25K per year was going to take. You only get that income tax credit when you file your taxes and show you owe at least that much before other taxes and credits (non refundable). IF one was on ACA then the tax credit loss in going from 25K to 80K of income for a family of 3 with two parents 37 years old and one child is $6,000 in lost tax credits for ACA a family of 3 would only pay $42 per month for ACA with 25K of income and $9,200 in lost subsidies to the deductible for a silver plan. So you would lose $15,200 in credits for ACA to get $13,500 in Green environmental tax credits in the year you did this. But if you were already spending far more than 25K per year and instead were paying over 100K per year, and just pretending to live on 25 K per year, these tax credits on the Nissan Leaf make this an incredibly good deal and an interesting blog post. Now the interesting part is for a family of 3 25K of income per year is tax free from federal taxes so the income tax saved would not be a real savings, as if you could live on 25K you could go another 33 years to age 70 without ever paying taxes. And Colorado uses federal tax income exemptions and deductions to decide on income tax so at 25K you pay no state taxes either. Therefore the marginal rates as you add taxes from ACA, federal and Colorado as you go forward are very high indeed -with out tax credits you would pay $7,300 in Federal taxes $2,400 in state taxes and $6000 in ACA tax credits for the additional 55K of income (not even counting the lost $9,200 deductible help) for a 28.5% effective tax rate and if you have medical claims the total potential loss is $27,900 or an effective tax rate of 47 percent.

You seem to be conflating spending and income. Lots of us got to ER by spending far less than our income. But we still paid taxes on the income - not the spending.

MMM obviously has significant blog income - so the tax credit is REAL for him. If your point is that it might not be for another family that spends $25k and only has $25k of income - you are right... but they wouldn't be adding $16k (net after tax credits, etc) to their $25k/year spend.

[MooreBonds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris7 He started a blog. His blog, which I don't believe he really thought it would, ended up becoming immensely successful. Now he has even more choices available to him. And good for him to be able to enjoy his success a bit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone wanted to write a blog, couldn't they put it on a variety of servers/providers for free, and the provider gets to keep the ad revenue, while the blogger gets nothing (or very little)? Did MMM pursue this, or did MMM retain all decision making by using his own server, etc?

I guess it just comes down to authenticity. Some people don't think authenticity is a big deal, or being upfront and honest. Others place a higher importance on it.

So someone who tries to build an online persona of being ridiculously thrifty (sometimes to the point of well beyond cost effectiveness), sometimes SOLELY FOR THE PRINCIPLE of the matter, is later 'allowed' to enjoy a lifestyle far beyond the aesthetic budget and lifestyle he espoused (which was THE reason he even drew a following to begin with).

It's not MMM's "success" that people are grumbling about - it's the inconsistency and numbers that don't add up that strongly suggest he was never honest to begin with. That, coupled with the fact that if he truly was someone who lived and breathed what he claimed, he wouldn't need or want the blog revenue, and wouldn't need to retain ownership of the blog to control the ad revenue.

[Chris7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooreBonds Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone wanted to write a blog, couldn't they put it on a variety of servers/providers for free, and the provider gets to keep the ad revenue, while the blogger gets nothing (or very little)? Did MMM pursue this, or did MMM retain all decision making by using his own server, etc? I guess it just comes down to authenticity. Some people don't think authenticity is a big deal, or being upfront and honest. Others place a higher importance on it. So someone who tries to build an online persona of being ridiculously thrifty (sometimes to the point of well beyond cost effectiveness), sometimes SOLELY FOR THE PRINCIPLE of the matter, is later 'allowed' to enjoy a lifestyle far beyond the aesthetic budget and lifestyle he espoused (which was THE reason he even drew a following to begin with). It's not MMM's "success" that people are grumbling about - it's the inconsistency and numbers that don't add up that strongly suggest he was never honest to begin with. That, coupled with the fact that if he truly was someone who lived and breathed what he claimed, he wouldn't need or want the blog revenue, and wouldn't need to retain ownership of the blog to control the ad revenue.

It is true that you could host the blog somewhere for free and even not display ads at all. To be honest, I haven't paid much attention to his beginnings, other than a large number of people believe he did start off his FI aspect according to the story line.

And for those that haven't tried, it does actually take a considerable amount work to create a successful blog income. I enjoyed some success in that arena in years past. Short-story: it took six years to gain some decent traction and steady traffic.

And whether or not you need something, but through "happenstance" you build something successful, that with lots of work is somewhat duplicatable, I guess I don't have a problem with it. I guess I do believe he was a guy that originally lived frugally and could basically live off of 25K/yr.

c7 :O)

[Greencheese]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplesky Mr. Money mustache is a fake early retirement blogger. He is a Ferb. Mr. Money mustache is just a scam artist and he is encouraging the millennial generation to not work and just sponge off other people. It's hilarious to hear some 30 something millennial talk about how stressful work Was during a ten-year career while they saved $1 million. The terrible commute. The stress from other coworkers and busy projects and deadlines. I just really want to hang out at the park. Just throw my frisbee and do free stuff and live off $30,000 a year for the rest of my life because I know Vanguard will take care of me. Hey look there's a unicorn!!!!!!

So what's wrong with enjoying a leisurely low cost life if you have the assets to at a young age? Does turning 45/50/55/65/70 suddenly entitle one to those things whereas younger than such a threshold an individual MUST work? If I had the ability to make X number of dollars from my investments at an early age and live what I deem to be a fulfilling life why would I work? At some point enough is enough.

[Major Tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greencheese So what's wrong with enjoying a leisurely low cost life if you have the assets to at a young age? Does turning 45/50/55/65/70 suddenly entitle one to those things whereas younger than such a threshold an individual MUST work? If I had the ability to make X number of dollars from my investments at an early age and live what I deem to be a fulfilling life why would I work? At some point enough is enough.

I agree, and I think purplesky's comments diluted the focus of the thread somewhat. Most of those who don't like MMM's approach feel as such because of a perceived dishonesty in the way he presents himself, and not because he ceased performing traditional work early.

Personally, I don't like the arrogance of the persona he has created. I'm free to find him annoying though, and choose to ignore him, just as others are free to think he's the bee's knees.

[eta2020]

Yea what makes him very smart is that he makes sh*tload of money by pretending to live on 30k a year

Hmmm something like that should be my second career/hobby when I FIRE.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris7 It is true that you could host the blog somewhere for free and even not display ads at all. To be honest, I haven't paid much attention to his beginnings, other than a large number of people believe he did start off his FI aspect according to the story line. And for those that haven't tried, it does actually take a considerable amount work to create a successful blog income. I enjoyed some success in that arena in years past. Short-story: it took six years to gain some decent traction and steady traffic. And whether or not you need something, but through "happenstance" you build something successful, that with lots of work is somewhat duplicatable, I guess I don't have a problem with it. I guess I do believe he was a guy that originally lived frugally and could basically live off of 25K/yr. c7 :O)

Your post then goes into the other side of the coin.... did he retire at all... or did he just change jobs and worked hard to become a blogger and is reaping the rewards big time now....

[RobbieB]

Weather or not he (they) are retired does not concern me.

What would concern me is if he blogs about "frugal living" on 25 grand a year and actually spends a quarter mill a year having big fun then it's all crap. Caca. Basura.

A big pack of lies.

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major Tom I agree, and I think purplesky's comments diluted the focus of the thread somewhat. Most of those who don't like MMM's approach feel as such because of a perceived dishonesty in the way he presents himself, and not because he ceased performing traditional work early.

+1. I like not having to work and going to the park myself. If I knew how pleasant it would be I would have saved more and retired even earlier.

[purplesky]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greencheese So what's wrong with enjoying a leisurely low cost life if you have the assets to at a young age? Does turning 45/50/55/65/70 suddenly entitle one to those things whereas younger than such a threshold an individual MUST work? If I had the ability to make X number of dollars from my investments at an early age and live what I deem to be a fulfilling life why would I work? At some point enough is enough.

I guess it all comes down to how much low cost leisure you are going to enjoy off your X number of dollars from your investments.

Mr. Money mustache is advertising $24,000 a year and that just doesn't seem like a lot of leisure to me. Because it's not.
Obviously Mr. Money mustache has a business account on the side and we're not really getting the whole Financial picture of Mr. Money mustaches life.

I just find it fascinating that in this low-wage economy A millennial actually making enough money to save $1 million in 10 years would just quit working to live on a minimum wage income for the rest of their lives.

Yeah I just don't think 10 years in the workforce is really the point where you say enough is enough.

That's just not enough laps around the track of life experience.

[Music Lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplesky I guess it all comes down to how much low cost leisure you are going to enjoy off your X number of dollars from your investments. Mr. Money mustache is advertising $24,000 a year and that just doesn't seem like a lot of leisure to me. Because it's not. Obviously Mr. Money mustache has a business account on the side and we're not really getting the whole Financial picture of Mr. Money mustaches life. I just find it fascinating that in this low-wage economy A millennial actually making enough money to save $1 million in 10 years would just quit working to live on a minimum wage income for the rest of their lives. Yeah I just don't think 10 years in the workforce is really the point where you say enough is enough. That's just not enough laps around the track of life experience.

I'm not really a fan but have read a few of his blogs. From what I recall, most of his leisure activity is along the lines of hiking and making craft beer...very inexpensive endeavors. No boats, no overseas trips, no new or second vehicles (until now I guess), no eating out, etc. If your house is paid off, you do your own DIY, and your leisure activities are free or almost free, then $25,000 is plenty to live on.

[harley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markola All of the attitude is tongue-in-cheek because he's also just a young guy with a family named Pete

Interesting. I once knew a man with a wooden leg named Smith.

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Music Lover From what I recall, most of his leisure activity is along the lines of hiking and making craft beer...very inexpensive endeavors.

He also counts among his hobbies making folks on the internet debate endlessly about him. I hear he gets a nickel every time someone calls him a fake/fraud/scammer/liar or questions whether he is really retired.

He has a lot of nickels I hear.