Moolah

[runchman]

I'm barely over the 100k point, here's how I did it:

- Be born with a high aptitude for math
- In high school look at careers and salaries, figure "I'm good at math, engineering pays well, guess I'll do that"
- Get Electrical Engineering degree
- Start at 30k in 1987, work, get raise, repeat.......

Primarily luck that I was born in the engineer mold (or is that a curse?) and took advantage of it.

Still not FIRE though, if that's any concillation

- John

[ndfmnlf]

Quote:

While that statement is true, you must really look at the grades/scores/marks needed just to advance into those programs as well as the amount of education and years of training to be able to competently engage in the mentioned occupations. That is the real barrier to entry. The licensure process is merely a way for the government to be able to ensure that those engaging in their profession are capable of doing it to a standard that has been set. By the way... I'm a dentist

Hi novaman,

The years of education (and good grades) are required to meet licensing requirements imposed by the state. If the state did not impose such requirements, anyone and his uncle can open a clinic and start practicing. The elimination of licensing requirements promotes competition and reduces the incomes of these practitioners. It may also reduce health care costs. Of course this leaves the consumers to fend for themselves. They will have to figure out by other means (i.e. doctor's reputation, trial and error, etc) if the doctor they are seeing is actually competent.

Being an MD myself, I think licensing is needed to protect the public. All I'm saying is that the high income occupations got to that state partly because of the barrier to competition imposed by licensure.

[2B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf Hi novaman, The years of education (and good grades) are required to meet licensing requirements imposed by the state. If the state did not impose such requirements, anyone and his uncle can open a clinic and start practicing.

Good grades and the current years of education aren't necessarily the optimum for licensing for medicine. Way back in pre-1900's, doctors frequently came from unregulated "schools" with a wide variety of standards. Many never went to anything that resembled college. The quality frequently left much to be desired.

The AMA took over and was really the first to manage the licensing practice for any profession. They went a bit overboard - IMHO - with the barriers to entrance into a highly restricted number of medical school openings. The US is the only country I am aware of that requires medical students to get a 4 year degree before admitance to medical school. It helped the salaries of doctors in the past but now we can't import enough foreign educated doctors to fill our health care needs.

I will agree that we get the "best and brightest" for the ones that become doctors. Importing massive numbers of foreign educated doctors makes me wonder why we don't double the number of US schools and let people enter after good freshman grades in a math/science formatted curriculum.

[DblDoc]

I wonder how many applicants there are now for each slot in medical school. I don't think the attraction is there. You face a great deal of uncertainty about what medicine will look like 10 - 20 - 30 years from now, you have little control over your work and with a good economy the job security hasn't likely been much of an incentive. Personally I would not recommend family/friends enter a career as an MD. Yes the pay is good but relatively speaking not as good as it used to be and it is increasingly more stressfull.

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DblDoc I wonder how many applicants there are now for each slot in medical school. I don't think the attraction is there. You face a great deal of uncertainty about what medicine will look like 10 - 20 - 30 years from now, you have little control over your work and with a good economy the job security hasn't likely been much of an incentive. Personally I would not recommend family/friends enter a career as an MD. Yes the pay is good but relatively speaking not as good as it used to be and it is increasingly more stressfull.

True enough, med school applications are down but still very competitive. There are numerous 2nd generation immigrant students (many Asian / East Indian), the kids of those who came during my generation and faced great workplace discrimination. The "kids" are doing just fine, though, and are well represented among the best medical students.

The fact that med schools are no longer filled 85% by valedictorians and 4.0 GPA students is not all bad. Maybe they will be more rounded and balanced in their patient interactions.

BTW. in the 1960s, when I applied, there were about 30 applicants for every medical school spot. Viet Nam was still raging and medicine was one of the few draft deferral strategies available.

[BunsGettingFirm]

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Originally Posted by brewer12345 We'd tell you, but then we'd have to kill you. ...Then I pursued a hard-to-get and much sought after professional designation. I finished the first exam three weeks after grad school finals, and I finished the second one less than 24 hours before my wife went into labor with our first kid. Now I work very long hours with an ugly commute. Count your blessings.

Would that be the CFA designation? BTW, I'm hearing from guys work hedge funds that a CFA + MBA doesn't mean squat, at least not in the USA. Is that a case of envy or reality? Most of them have only bachelor's degree but have put in their time doing back office work, so they are making decent money.

[wildcat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BunsGettingFirm Would that be the CFA designation? BTW, I'm hearing from guys work hedge funds that a CFA + MBA doesn't mean squat, at least not in the USA. Is that a case of envy or reality? Most of them have only bachelor's degree but have put in their time doing back office work, so they are making decent money.

It still matters for the finance world. Hedge funds have leaned more towards the math & computer engineering types in recent years.

[BunsGettingFirm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumby Barbarus: Associates at big New York City law firms are now starting at $140k per year, so you could try that. As you might expect, however, there are a few strings attached: 1. You must work your @ss off in high school to get good grades and build your resume so that you can get into an Ivy League college. No partying, drugs or general teenage shenanigans for you. 2. You must work your @ss off at your Ivy League college so that you will get good grades to get into a top law school. Again, not much of the party time, wild and crazy college experience for you. 3. You must work your @ass off in law school so that you are in the top of your class and on the law review, so that you can even get an interview with the top firms. 4. Now that you have been hired by Wee, Billam & Howe LLP, you will be expected to work regular 14 hour days, including probably more than half of your weekends, with the occasional all-nighter thrown in for fun. Even when you aren't physically working, you will be thinking about what you might have screwed up and worrying whether you will be fired and/or sued for malpractice. 5. Unless mom and dad paid for your education, you will have $200k or more in student loans to repay. 6. You get to live in New York, where a one bedroom apartment goes for $2500 per month or more, and everything else is similarly expensive. 7. Every day, you get to deal with people who are paid to be difficult. Sounds like a real gravy train to me.

I remember seeing the picture of a big-time partner in a law firm. The caption stated that he was 46 at the time, but he looked about 60. I guess everything has a price.

[BunsGettingFirm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildcat It still matters for the finance world. Hedge funds have leaned more towards the math & computer engineering types in recent years.

Which are degrees that I also have. Man, I guess those guys were just being difficult.

[Mach]

It's certainly not good to think high salary is something that generally only doctors and laywers get. As some have already commented, look at the big picture.

Most people are only limited in the earnings potential by what is in their own mind. A mechanic can learn the trade from a book or their dad, get good, then open their own shop, build a customer base, then have other mechanics work for them. Its not easy, but neither is medical school.

I still think the top criteria for building wealth:
1. Having a goal
2. Planning, dynamically, on reaching the goal.
3. Working hard/smart based on that plan
4. A salaried job is only one way to earn income, consider contracting, consulting, and starting a business, in your planning.

For tier 2 priorities I would still not rank profession, I would rank:
5. Identify a field that is currently in high demand and pays well
6. Identify what cities are hot spots for these fields and move/work there.

*NOTE: be sure to see big picture, you must count time investment, tuition + interest, etc., in your analysis. We have already seen dr/lawyers comment... it's a huge up front investment.

I would love to go back to highschool and get this advice instead of the ignorant nonsense I received back then. (not too long ago).
And this has no relation to technical vs non-technical, professional vs non-professional, ivy-league vs high school education.

-Mach

[Eyerishgold]

I used to have a chip on my shoulder because I never went to school and therefore don't have a degree. What I do have, however, is a solid understanding planning, saving, investing and budgeting. I also have a lager income than many of my well educated friends. I don't have kids yet but when I do, I'll definately encourage them to go to school and not to follow my path. I've been successful to this point in my career but I'm starting to feel doors closing on me. But it doesn't matter how much I make, it matters what I do with the money I earn. I'm currently doing the right things and will be able to RE in 17 yrs at 45.

[Goonie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyerishgold .......it doesn't matter how much I make, it matters what I do with the money I earn. I'm currently doing the right things and will be able to RE in 17 yrs at 45.

And THAT'S what it's all about, Eyerish! Way to go!

[Robert the Red]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DblDoc I wonder how many applicants there are now for each slot in medical school. I don't think the attraction is there.

I've heard this worry bruited about from various sources. I've attached a figure from http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/charts1982to2006.pdf that shows that the number of applicants to slots fluctuates around a fair bit, but it's hard to discern any real trend. This vertical axis on this graph, by the way, is the number of individual applicants, not the number of applications.

I know -- injecting data into a forum's discussion is pointless. But pointless is what I live for. And also wandering far from the OP's topic.

[hayekcapitalist]

Never earned six figures. Wife is an R.N., that certainly helps at least with job security. But, I won't reiterate my bio here, but, empty your pockets of excuses and get over the self-pity, it is a myth propagated and perpetuated by neo-collectivists (read class warfare pundits) that the successful among us are accidents of birth or got that way in some other "unfair" manner.

Now that I've given you a reality check, let me encourage you. Even 40-50K is sufficient seed capital to plan for and secure, probabilistically, a comfortable retirement if you LBYM and are not defined by the things that own you.

It is a myth propagated by neo-collectivists (read class-warfare propagandists) that the successful among us got that way somehow unfairly.

You can do it too!!!

[Martha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayekcapitalist . . . it is a myth propagated and perpetuated by neo-collectivists (read class warfare pundits) that the successful among us are accidents of birth or got that way in some other "unfair" manner.

Fighting words. What is unfair is the huge gap between what workers make and highly paid, self perpetuating management. If there was a class war, they won.

[Gumby]

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Originally Posted by Martha Fighting words. What is unfair is the huge gap between what workers make and highly paid, self perpetuating management. If there was a class war, they won.

Speaking of class warfare, I like the following quote:

Labor is prior to, and independent of,capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could not have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
Lincoln in the Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861

[CourtneyC]

It's all about how much you keep.. not how much you make.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha Fighting words. What is unfair is the huge gap between what workers make and highly paid, self perpetuating management. If there was a class war, they won.

Include, along with "magagement," white collar professionals now making huge multiples over honest, hardworking blue collar workers.

[Southbay]

A job that some people might want to consider is SALES. It's one of the few jobs where a degree is not required (but recommended) and you can make some good money. I've been in the technology industry for over 10 years now and I have seen countless people with no degrees / maybe some college work make over $100k/year consistently and some good ones average $150k/year including years over $200k/year. Technology/Telecom/Pharmacy Sales are all good industries for salespeople or jobs in general. If you have the right personality and are willing to accept the risks (quota every month) that come with the reward, then sales might be the right job for you.

[Martha]

In my town we have some medical specialists making a million five and some family practice docs making $70,000.