More on teacher pay

[Patrick]

Yes indeed , spend almost 30 years teaching in an american inner city school district, then tell me I do not deserve my pension.

Most have lost their pensions because of a practice of the 401K which was originally made for a perk to the CEO of big corp back in the early 70s when many had pensions. Then they the CEOs saw the light make americans fend for themselves. Sure our union has watched out for the teacher since not many others have.

I will say this again 30 years with a masters degree and at 79K its really not much. My pension of 33K is well not bad.

You don't teach writing skills, grammar, and punctuation, do you?

 

[dumpster56]

You don't teach writing skills, grammar, and punctuation, do you?

nope, however it is not something i bother with when posting.

 

[ERD50]

Yes indeed , spend almost 30 years teaching in an american inner city school district, then tell me I do not deserve my pension.
....

I will say this again 30 years with a masters degree and at 79K its really not much. My pension of 33K is well not bad.

newguy888, with all due respect, this is the kind of post I sincerely do not understand.

Who implied that you don't 'deserve' your pension? You worked under contract, you knew what you were getting and you knew what the job entailed. You accepted it, so now you get your pension. If you didn't think that was fair compensation for teaching in an inner-city school district, you were free to find other work, so you really can't 'complain' either.

I think that all some of us are saying is that (as you say too), annual salary is not the whole story. Pensions (BTW, is that a COLA pension?), time off, benefits and tenure count for something - maybe different for different folks, but you cannot completely discount it either.

-ERD50

 

[sgeeeee]

I'm amazed that this board has this much to say about teacher pay. : : : Is this really one of the burning issues of retirement? or a top problem in this country?

I can believe that education is a top problem in the country. So, do posters really believe that adjusting teacher pay/benefits will solve that problem?

 

[youbet]

do posters really believe that adjusting teacher pay/benefits will solve that problem?

Hard to tell since that really hasn't been addressed very much. The subject has really been whether teacher pay is "fair" vs. the pay for other professions.

Summarizing....... Anecdotal examples of high teacher pay. Anecdotal examples of low teacher pay. Calls for free market pay. A little teacher bashing. A little teacher praising. High property tax whining. Public education performance bashing. There are non-cash components to compensation to be considered. Non-teachers have a sour grapes attitude. Stop whining and get involved with you local school district.

I'm sure there were some others, but that's what I recall.

edited to add....... Oh yeah, and the always popular, "lets just shut down the public education system and things will get better immediately."

 

[dumpster56]

newguy888, with all due respect, this is the kind of post I sincerely do not understand.

Who implied that you don't 'deserve' your pension? You worked under contract, you knew what you were getting and you knew what the job entailed. You accepted it, so now you get your pension. If you didn't think that was fair compensation for teaching in an inner-city school district, you were free to find other work, so you really can't 'complain' either.

I think that all some of us are saying is that (as you say too), annual salary is not the whole story. Pensions (BTW, is that a COLA pension?), time off, benefits and tenure count for something - maybe different for different folks, but you cannot completely discount it either.

-ERD50

I was responding to some of the posts that seem to be saying the pensions we earned are too generous.

By the way I started teaching and had to join and contribute to the system and have a book with their the states responsibility, funny thing happened over 30 years. The state neglected to fully fund our pension system while they continued to take out my monthly contributions which continued to increase every year.

Now we hear the cry that the system is broken. Oops..

I never had the choice to opt out of the system.

 

[yelnad]

AGAIN MY COMMENTS PERTAIN TO NEW YORK
you can disagree but the fact is the default career that you get led to in a new york college or university is teaching. the courses that are more plentiful and slightly easier lead down a path thats like a funnel. by the time you know it if you had no other career path in mind the courses you have taken lead no where else without big time re-tracing and eventually you reach a point where you cant even get back up the funnel to head in another direction.

its the systems way of cranking out teachers. why? because on a pay scale with a masters, teaching and social working are at the low end. although you are compensated with tremendous time off, superb benefits and a retirement plan thats better than most anything you can get in private industry but most people my daughter included didnt intitialy go into the school to be a teacher and probley wouldnt have been if it wasnt for the teacher trap built in to the system. . .at this point my daughter graduates this month and its off to graduate school for her masters in education. most of my friends ended up being teachers just by the mere fact they got caught in the funnel.

Mathjak,

Please stop spouting "FACTS" on behalf of the State of New York. Have you worked in colleges in NY? Have you spent any time in the SUNY system as a student, staff member, or teacher?? I've attended and worked in both public and private institutions of higher education in NY. The "default" career is not teaching in all NY colleges. Some are TEACHING colleges who do indeed offer more teaching majors than other colleges. If you enter one of these colleges not wanting to be a teacher, the odds are pretty good that you might end up a teacher.

Don't belittle teaching programs. The classes are not easier than other liberal arts majors. A teaching major is not easier to achieve. Most teaching degrees in NY have MORE specific course requirements and higher GPA requirements than other majors. They also usually require more credits than a non-teaching degree. Teaching programs in NY turn unqualified students away all the time. This is why almost all other states in the US make it easier for NY certified teachers to get certified in their states.

/End Rant.

I think most people realize that the generalizations about Long Island and NYC do not apply to the rest of New York State. My father retired after 30 years of teaching and his pension is 66% of his salary, which is roughly $30k. His "full health benefits" that someone mentioned last until he turns 65 and then he'll rely on Medicare. He was sorely underpaid for the work he did. Do I believe all teachers are underpaid? Not necessarily.

 

[Nords]

So, how much should we pay these two union-member professionally-certified state-employed teachers?

"Teachers' arrests outrage parents"

Neither of them actually taught our kid but I didn't even know that our 9th-grader could spell "hypocrite", let alone spit it out in that tone of voice. I fear that her hero-worship days are over...

 

[mathjak107]

Mathjak,

Please stop spouting "FACTS" on behalf of the State of New York. Have you worked in colleges in NY? Have you spent any time in the SUNY system as a student, staff member, or teacher?? I've attended and worked in both public and private institutions of higher education in NY. The "default" career is not teaching in all NY colleges. Some are TEACHING colleges who do indeed offer more teaching majors than other colleges. If you enter one of these colleges not wanting to be a teacher, the odds are pretty good that you might end up a teacher.

Don't belittle teaching programs. The classes are not easier than other liberal arts majors. A teaching major is not easier to achieve. Most teaching degrees in NY have MORE specific course requirements and higher GPA requirements than other majors. They also usually require more credits than a non-teaching degree. Teaching programs in NY turn unqualified students away all the time. This is why almost all other states in the US make it easier for NY certified teachers to get certified in their states.

/End Rant.

I think most people realize that the generalizations about Long Island and NYC do not apply to the rest of New York State. My father retired after 30 years of teaching and his pension is 66% of his salary, which is roughly $30k. His "full health benefits" that someone mentioned last until he turns 65 and then he'll rely on Medicare. He was sorely underpaid for the work he did. Do I believe all teachers are underpaid? Not necessarily.

sorry pal but i can only comment on areas im familiar with and thats why i refrain from making comments about other areas. my wifes a teacher so my comments are based on facts and our experiences. you may see things differently and thats your impression.



i wouldnt consider st johns and queens college teaching colleges .

and no ones saying that the classes that lead to education are inferior. they are definately easier to get and there are far more . they are also strung in such a way that taking 101 is okAY , Taking 201 is what puts you in the funnel in most cases. if a student has no clear cut idea of what they want to be im convinced the system default will put them on the path to being a teacher or social worker...

 

[mathjak107]

different topic : i remember when we went to school we had an academic diploma, a general diploma and a commercial diploma for those with no interest in going to college.

well again new york killed that off. unfortunately if a kid is not good in math or science basically hes dead in the water now. there is no 2nd prize for a student who wants to go to school, wants to graduate . its all or drop out. i think its most unfair to do this to the kids

 

[Patrick]

So, how much should we pay these two union-member professionally-certified state-employed teachers?

Was their job performance impaired?

 

[Nords]

Was their job performance impaired?

How would we smell tell?

 

[Spanky]

Was their job performance impaired?

I believe that the use of illegal drug is ground for termination of employment as practiced by Corporate America regardless of performance.

 

[sgeeeee]

I believe that the use of illegal drug is ground for termination of employment as practiced by Corporate America regardless of performance.

Not always. Back in the 80's I worked at Motorola when they decided to establish random drug testing. They knew this would be unpopular so they decided that they would first require screening of all their executives followed by introduction of the drug test for the entire employee population.

Unfortunately for the new Motorola drug czar, many of the executive's tests showed a large number of prescription drugs were in use without a prescription (ie. illegal drugs). Motorola put the program on hold for a couple of months and readjusted the list of drugs they were testing for as well as the thresholds they would use for declaring a positive test. The executives never had to re-test before they declared them all drug free and implemented the test for all the remaining employees.

 

[Patrick]

How would we smell tell?

Well if you can't tell, I say pay them the same as the other employees. You're getting the same value.

 

[lets-retire]

Mathjak--I often thought that a program where you earned a specific diploma would be good, even at the high school level. So the people who have no desire to go to college, but are highly skilled at say auto repair, or the construction trades would be able to receive a lot of instruction in those skills. In the example of the an auto mechanic, the students would be able to obtain their diploma and some ASE certifications, which I think in the long run would serve them better than a general education diploma. my BIL has no interest or skill in business, but he is an awesome mechanic. His main problem is he works for his father so he does not have any certifications that would make him a more valuable employee. His main interest since he was a kid (we played baseball together many years ago) has been cars and trucks.

Unfortunately I'm sure some political type would screw up that program also, but in a perfect world....

 

[youbet]

Not always. Back in the 80's I worked at Motorola when they decided to establish random drug testing. They knew this would be unpopular so they decided that they would first require screening of all their executives followed by introduction of the drug test for the entire employee population.

Unfortunately for the new Motorola drug czar, many of the executive's tests showed a large number of prescription drugs were in use without a prescription (ie. illegal drugs). Motorola put the program on hold for a couple of months and readjusted the list of drugs they were testing for as well as the thresholds they would use for declaring a positive test. The executives never had to re-test before they declared them all drug free and implemented the test for all the remaining employees.

Have you stuck with the same drugs over the years since then? Or are you doing something new now?

 

[HFWR]

I've always thought that drug testing was the ultimate irony. They should be handing out drugs to the unfortunate souls that have to work in the semiconductor industry teach... :

 

[astromeria]

sigh. Gotta remind some of you once again that many teachers fund their own retirement. My son puts 11% of his gross pay into his teacher retirement fund--the school district puts in 2 or 3%, a smaller match than most companies. He also pays $100/month for his single person health insurance. When he retires, I hope the upscale townspeople (in a town he will never be able to afford to live in) will not scream bloody murder over his "cushy retirement at our expense."

BTW, this towen is pretty darn smart. When my son posted his resume (scinece major with A- average, no education classes at all, work expereience only as a camp counselor), this district snapped him up instantly. My son is pretty smart, too. He works in an upscale district, heavily Jewish, where education is highly valued. He is generally content with his pay ($45k in his 6th year), retirement prospects (full benefit of 60% final salary at age 58 plus lifetime health insurance--at a price), working conditions, colleagues, students, and parents. All of his friends make more than he does, but some have been laid off at least once in their 20s, only the other teachers have late June to late August off, and he never needs to miss a major holiday with his family/friends. Of course, not all of them have work to do over the weekend, as he often does. And most don't have work to do in the evening like he almost always does either. But since he enjoys the work, he doesn't find it much of a burden (yet...he's too young for burnout ;-). And at the end of every day he knows that at least some of his students have learned something new about science. While attending HS plays & concerts, he has the opportunity to meet some of his former students (he teaches at the middle school level). He gets quite a thrill from learning that science is their favorite subject or that they are planning to major in science in college.

I find the contempt for teachers and resentment of their benefits puzzling. Teaching likely attracts no more (or fewer) rogues/slackers than any other line of work. Resetnmetn is especailly puzzling coming from those who earn so much more and can retire so much earlier. Even some who have cushier federal retirements. ah, well.

 

[FinanceDude]

sigh. Gotta remind some of you once again that many teachers fund their own retirement. My son puts 11% of his gross pay into his teacher retirement fund--the school district puts in 2 or 3%, a smaller match than most companies. He also pays $100/month for his single person health insurance. When he retires, I hope the upscale townspeople (in a town he will never be able to afford to live in) will not scream bloody murder over his "cushy retirement at our expense."

BTW, this towen is pretty darn smart. When my son posted his resume (scinece major with A- average, no education classes at all, work expereience only as a camp counselor), this district snapped him up instantly. My son is pretty smart, too. He works in an upscale district, heavily Jewish, where education is highly valued. He is generally content with his pay ($45k in his 6th year), retirement prospects (full benefit of 60% final salary at age 58 plus lifetime health insurance--at a price), working conditions, colleagues, students, and parents. All of his friends make more than he does, but some have been laid off at least once in their 20s, only the other teachers have late June to late August off, and he never needs to miss a major holiday with his family/friends. Of course, not all of them have work to do over the weekend, as he often does. And most don't have work to do in the evening like he almost always does either. But since he enjoys the work, he doesn't find it much of a burden (yet...he's too young for burnout ;-). And at the end of every day he knows that at least some of his students have learned something new about science. While attending HS plays & concerts, he has the opportunity to meet some of his former students (he teaches at the middle school level). He gets quite a thrill from learning that science is their favorite subject or that they are planning to major in science in college.

I find the contempt for teachers and resentment of their benefits puzzling. Teaching likely attracts no more (or fewer) rogues/slackers than any other line of work. Resetnmetn is especailly puzzling coming from those who earn so much more and can retire so much earlier. Even some who have cushier federal retirements. ah, well.

Agree with your statements. Some school districts have a stronger union than others, so there is a lot of skewing in numbers.

But, I live in Wisconsin, where we have the highest per capita amount of state employees in the US, so we here are perhaps a little more sensitive to things since we live in "tax hell"................

 

[youbet]

I find the contempt for teachers and resentment of their benefits puzzling.

Me too.

There is wide performance variation among teachers. There is wide pay/benefit variation among teachers. It's easy for outspoken teacher unions to give anecdotal examples of high performing - low paid teachers. It's easy for critics to give anecdotal examples of low performing - high paid teachers. And the war begins!

The school district which hired your son seems to be happy with him. He seems to be happy with his work and overall compensation package. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

BTW Astro....... you mentioned your son took no education classes at all and is teaching in a middle school. Is he working on some type of provisional or temporary certificate? Does he have some kind of deadline to achieve certification? Is the school district paying for him to attend classes to achieve certification? Just wondering how that works.

 

[FinanceDude]

I think the biggest help would be to realize the educational system in this country is flawed, and no amount of money can fix it.

With that foundation, how can we blame the teachers for the result? BTW, there are plenty of low-performing folks in ALL areas of the economy.........

FWIW, I wouldn't want my kid growing up in one of those "smart countries" like China, where the govt decides at age 6 if your kid's smart enough to go to college, or he doesn't get to go past a certain level.........

 

[Patrick]

. . . since we live in "tax hell"................

I thought that was Taxachusetts Massachusetts?

 

[FinanceDude]

I thought that was Taxachusetts Massachusetts?

No we got you guys all beat!! 2nd highest gas tax in the US< 4th highest property tax, and we're the state with the highest per capita number of state employees in the US...........

However, you guys have Ted Kennedy, so I guess we're even..........

 

[Patrick]

No we got you guys all beat!! 2nd highest gas tax in the US< 4th highest property tax, and we're the state with the highest per capita number of state employees in the US...........

However, you guys have Ted Kennedy, so I guess we're even..........

I was told overall it was Mass. Oh, well, you can have that claim to fame!
I'd don't live there (thank goodness), but I have some relatives who do. They're not real happy about the Big Dig.