More Work = More Security?

[Marquette]

My SIL the mechanic swears by her Craftsman tools. My friend with too much money won't touch anything but DeWalt and Snap-On. He's also convinced that the most expensive thing is always the best thing no matter what (this vacuum is better because it's a Dyson, that blender is better because it's a Kitchenaide and costs more than this Oster, etc)

 

[Nords]

I wonder how many people love their job so much and refuse to retire when their bank have 3 million dollars or more. Most folks that i know work beyond their retirement age because of money NOT for the love of their profession.

CNBC had an interesting "voyeuristic show" (certainly can't call it a documentary) last night. Spouse said it was interviewing various >$50M millionaires & billionaires about their beliefs and lifestyles. For example they'd show a guy (and they were all guys) with an impressive yacht but it'd turn out that he was only on it 3-4 times/year and had no idea how to drive it, let alone moor or get underway. Other guys would whine about how their kids were going to be affected by their materialistic lifestyles-- growing up in a 30,000 square-foot house. (Yes, that number is thirty thousand.) Then every one of them would plunge back into their work to make more money.

Buffett & Gates & Feeney have created a revolution. Guys used to live opulent lifestyles because they couldn't really justify hoarding the money. But now that it's cool to set up their own globe-changing charitable organizations, they're all working harder than ever to get more money for their foundation to make an even bigger impact on improving the world. "Sorry, honey, I'm selling the yacht so that I can cure malaria. We never really used it that much anyway."

It's amazing how many of the >$50M crowd professed to feel like "looooo-sers" because they weren't wizard enough to make it to $100M or even $1B. I was surprised to see the claim that there are over 20,000 people in the U.S. with net worths of over $50M.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

I wonder how many people love their job so much and refuse to retire when their bank have 3 million dollars or more. Most folks that i know work beyond their retirement age because of money NOT for the love of their profession.

I agree with you. Many of my colleagues work as long as they can (sometimes a bit longer than that) and when they are open to discussing it you hear things like "it's a calling" or "I love what I do" or "I can't think of anything I'd rather do."

While I wouldn't stand in judgment, my reaction runs along the lines of "How would you know what you're missing? You've never done anything but work. Your family barely knows you. You have no outside interests, marginal social skills, and little self-image outside of your profession." There's always the exception who seems to have it all together, but they are few and far between.

If it works, more power to them. I just find it a little sad in some cases.

 

[CitricAcid]

It may be a little past the discussion part of the post, as we have moved on to power tools, but I would like to add my opinoins on this.

It really boils down to a balance between, as you say, financial security against the unknowns of returns, risk and inflation versus the benefit of retiring. That is all it boils down to. It IS possible to MAYBE live off of 6% SWR, go look it up on FireCalc, it is not a 0% chance for some timespans. The idea of a 4% SWR is that it works 100% of the time, and gives more security. I would say most here shoot for a little less than 4%... or have 4% to supplement SS or DB plans. Also, many would also just value financial security from the future more than the freedom from work. This is entirely acceptable, it is just that most on an Early Retirement form are self-selected to be more in the lines of "freedom from work" than "security against the unknown"

To Frugality of Apathy, you could probably get a good COLA'd pension plan working as a hitman, or if **** hits the fan, you can just kill your creditors coming to collect your bills.

 

[Marquette]

HFWR: I guess an easier way to state my question: Wouldn't we all be better off working until 65

65 is pretty darn arbitrary. Why not work until 72 or 84?

If we assume that people don't live forever, then we can assume, from a mortality table standpoint, an 80 year old would need to fund a shorter retirement if she stopped working than a 40 year old early retiree.

So, from a portfolio standpoint, putting off working as long as possible will give you better odds of not outliving your portfolio. In fact, if you know when you're going to die, you could put off working until just a year before that. Your portfolio could withstand a 100% withdrawal rate just fine!

 

[CitricAcid]

65 is pretty darn arbitrary. Why not work until 72 or 84?

If we assume that people don't live forever, then we can assume, from a mortality table standpoint, an 80 year old would need to fund a shorter retirement if she stopped working than a 40 year old early retiree.

So, from a portfolio standpoint, putting off working as long as possible will give you better odds of not outliving your portfolio. In fact, if you know when you're going to die, you could put off working until just a year before that. Your portfolio could withstand a 100% withdrawal rate just fine!

Why do that when you can just live it up in the meantime, rack up a ton of CC debt, go upside down on a mortgage, buy timeshares, etc. and then just absolve all your debts by going 6 feet under?

 

[haha]

While I wouldn't stand in judgment, my reaction runs along the lines of "How would you know what you're missing? You've never done anything but work. Your family barely knows you. You have no outside interests, marginal social skills, and little self-image outside of your profession."

If this is accurate they are likely making a good decision not to change things too much. I believe that overall, we can't have it all. Certain decisions and even career patterns foreclose other possibilities. I see that as fine and in the nature of things and part of the background pain of life.

A wonderful movie that confronts this issue in the life of a distinguished physician is Wild Strawberries.

Ha

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

There are certainly plenty of "About Schmidt"'s. Plenty that wont be, but are scared to stick their foot in the water.

Probably because Kathy Bates might be naked in there somewhere.

 

[Frugality_of_Apathy]

The engineering biz is currently going wild. Anyone with a degree is in demand. We're all being treated well because they can't hire enough of us and they're afraid we'll go across the street if we get pissed.

What feild of Engineering? I'm actually a chemical engineer and looking to jump ship as right now I make plastics for airplane interiors and commercial aviation is starting to take a nose-dive.

 

[NW-Bound]

A wonderful movie that confronts this issue in the life of a distinguished physician is Wild Strawberries.
Ha

Wild Strawberries (1957) by Ingmar Bergman. I am #1 on the local public library queue. Thanks Ha.

I like this kind of movies. American action movies with stunts that defy laws of physics put me to sleep.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

If this is accurate they are likely making a good decision not to change things too much. I believe that overall, we can't have it all. Certain decisions and even career patterns foreclose other possibilities. I see that as fine and in the nature of things and part of the background pain of life.

No disagreement (which is why I have that little monolog silently). The only problem is that there is a gray zone between being clearly incompetent to practice and competent but worrisomely out of date or lacking "edge" and judgment. The latter group can become problematic if they insist on working while still being "competent" in the grander sense.

 

[CyclingInvestor]

No disagreement (which is why I have that little monolog silently). The only problem is that there is a gray zone between being clearly incompetent to practice and competent but worrisomely out of date or lacking "edge" and judgment. The latter group can become problematic if they insist on working while still being "competent" in the grander sense.

In most fields the incompetents are safely into management by the time they have lost it. Isn't there some safe jobs in medicine that people with reduced skills and no judgement can still perform ?

 

[HFWR]

Back to tools...

For occasional, light-duty use, your el-cheapo consumer brands are okie-dokie. But I speak from experience when I say that frequent, high-duty cycle use will melt the plastic in consumer grade tools. I've done it with a staple gun, a drill, and a sabre saw...

 

[haha]

No disagreement (which is why I have that little monolog silently). The only problem is that there is a gray zone between being clearly incompetent to practice and competent but worrisomely out of date or lacking "edge" and judgment. The latter group can become problematic if they insist on working while still being "competent" in the grander sense.

I think I didn't realize that you were referring to their fitness for their jobs, from the POV of the recipients of services.

I was thinking more along the ER angle of what are they losing personally in thier lives.

Ha

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

In most fields the incompetents are safely into management by the time they have lost it. Isn't there some safe jobs in medicine that people with reduced skills and no judgement can still perform ?

A few end up working for nothing as web forum moderators.

 

[Marquette]

A few end up working for nothing as web forum moderators.

And with a great group like this, that's the most rewarding around job for a semi-retired doctor O0

 

[Kronk]

I find it hard to believe anyone dislikes work in general, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'm just having a hard time getting over this. What's so good about work again? Seriously, it is surprising to me that someone (especially on this message board!) feels that way.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I'm pretty sure nothing beats sitting on the couch and eating homemade ice cream.

Pretty much anything that would take me away from that is probably work-like and therefore dislikeable.

 

[rs0460a]

I'm just having a hard time getting over this. What's so good about work again? Seriously, it is surprising to me that someone (especially on this message board!) feels that way.

While I also find the message "disturbing", I understand why it may be made, especially if it's from a younger person (anyway - younger than me, at age 60 ).

As my parents before me (born in the Depression) or my grandparents (all four emigrated from Europe after WWI with little more than the clothes on their back), I went through some "difficult times".

Not to hold a "pity me party", but just as an example, I was "required" to start work (full time) at a family business at the age of 13. What was full time? Every day I did not go to school, I was at work (10-12 hour shifts, at no pay - hey, I was getting room/board!). That included all weekends, holidays, and summer "vacations" (what's that?). When I graduated from HS (only one of my parents did), I was given the option. Work at "the business" on a 7-day week schedule, or get a job and give 50% of any net pay for my room/board.

As for "higher education" (e.g. college/university) - that was not an option, given the "maturity" of my parents .

Luckly, there was this thing called the "draft". I was called, I left home, and never returned.

If the "measurement" is from age 13 of starting work, till a bit over age 59 when I retired, that means that I've been "gainfully employed" for 46+ years.

Sorry, but I have no desire to hit the 50-year mark.

I'm retired and very happy with my life these days. No way would I want to return to any j*b where I am told what to do, when to do it, and how to do it.

My "freedom" was well earned, thank you very much.

(Sorry to rant, but I'm feeling like it, today ...)

- Ron

 

[NW-Bound]

I realize it's not easy, but I can't remember seeing finding another employer or career as an alternative if you don't like your work instead of RE. I find it hard to believe anyone dislikes work in general, but maybe I'm wrong.

I think in quite a few cases, forum members do not dislike their work, just the work environment. After investing in the education and training to obtain the job they have now, it is too difficult to find an alternative that pays as well. Besides, where can you go? It is better to grit your teeth, and build up your savings. Would you think any CEO would read posts like these, to see how corporate America has destroyed the nation productivity? Or do they even care?

I am among the ones who tried to build small businesses with friends, so we can do it "our way" without the megacorp BS, but we failed miserably.

Ron, in the above post, expressed his sentiments that he had worked hard in his life and now deserves some rest. Man, that's hard work, compared to what I have done. Ron is also older, in the 60s. But some people like myself are in their early 50s, when we are burnt out more due to corporate BS more than the work. My wife, of the same age as mine, got stressed out of her job with all the outsourcing to India.

P.S. I often lamented to my friends at a megacorp that perhaps they harassed us with BS so we would quit and save them the severance pay ...

 

[HFWR]

Would you think any CEO would read posts like these, to see how corporate America has destroyed the nation productivity? Or do they even care?

I think many corporations have the mindset that employees are a "cost", as if they're getting no benefit...

 

[unclemick]

I think many corporations have the mindset that employees are a "cost", as if they're getting no benefit...

Sooo - getting layed off at 49 after 23 years - which mildly pissed me off at the time - in the end made me happy.

Took a while for the part between my ears to morph from unemployed to retired.

I'd hate to think if I accidentily bumped my head or something that W word stuff would come back.

heh heh heh - and luckily I do suffer from nightmares.

 

[Meadbh]

My dentist enjoys his work and sets his own hours.

How about being a pharmacist (even though you may be able to set your own hours)? A pharmacist does not have to do status report, project planning, attend meetings, meet deadlines, give or receive performance reviews, work on personal development plan.

Oh really? Let me introduce you to some friends of mine!

 

[Meadbh]

commercial aviation is starting to take a nose-dive.

....so to speak....

 

[Meadbh]

In most fields the incompetents are safely into management by the time they have lost it. Isn't there some safe jobs in medicine that people with reduced skills and no judgement can still perform ?

Those people would get eaten alive in healthcare management. No, we shuffle 'em off to "mentor" young 'uns or to write the history of the local medical school.