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Old 10-20-2017, 07:53 PM   #41
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Not a spousal issue. Our planning for retirement has always been conservative assuming zero inheritance.
Thus discussions of taking care of B. #2 would require us to cut back or resume work. Those are not options I want either. However potential of him living on streets in 10 years is a reality.
I don't understand why the only options are having someone else controlling his money or living on the street. Will he get SS? Just because you've been self employed doesn't mean there will be no SS, unless he worked 40+ years in an completely under-the-table form. As pointed out in many other threads, living on SS may not be joyful, but it's possible. Add in food stamps, section 8 housing, Medicaid, and continued gig employment (Welcome to Walmart) and he should be able to afford at least a two room cardboard box.

Sure, continue to talk to Mom about a trust or whatever, but other than that don't assume the worst. He's obviously got a lifetime of experience figuring out how to get by.

Also, if I inherited $1M at age 70 or so and was able to blow right through it, the odds are that the blow out would probably kill me anyway, with a smile on my face. Problem solved.
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Old 10-20-2017, 08:22 PM   #42
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When the time comes, accept your share of the estate, continue to live the life you and your wife sacrificed and planned for, and let the chips fall where they may for younger brother. If older brother is that concerned about him, let him make any arrangements to provide for younger brother in the event older brother passes first.
+1 to this.
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Old 10-20-2017, 09:04 PM   #43
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This!


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Old 10-20-2017, 09:27 PM   #44
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Also, if I inherited $1M at age 70 or so and was able to blow right through it, the odds are that the blow out would probably kill me anyway, with a smile on my face. Problem solved.

That's what I was thinking! If your older brother is not willing to step up and get involved then theres nothing you can do, just like you have not been able to fix the situation all these years. You never know, assuming your brother was a low earner all these years he might handle the money better than expected.

Would he turn to you for help if he needed money? Has he already?
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Old 10-20-2017, 09:30 PM   #45
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Maybe your mom should set up the trust NOW and start giving him income. Then it will seem more normal to him and like a good deal. Plus your mon would have the peace of mind knowing he was taken care of. That's what my Mom did with my brother who is not a spendthrift but has pretty severe aspergers.
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Old 10-21-2017, 12:22 AM   #46
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I have a relative, getting a trust from dear dad, which is currently providing for him.
The relative has told me, as soon as dear dad dies, he is getting a lawyer to break the trust because "That money is mine".
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Old 10-21-2017, 06:25 AM   #47
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I have a relative, getting a trust from dear dad, which is currently providing for him.
The relative has told me, as soon as dear dad dies, he is getting a lawyer to break the trust because "That money is mine".
If mom is okay with the money not staying in the family when he dies, make the remainder beneficiary a large charity. That would put a roadblock to terminating the trust - although not impossible.
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Old 10-21-2017, 07:02 AM   #48
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You are not required to accept behavior from a relative that you would not accept from a stranger.
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Old 10-21-2017, 07:36 AM   #49
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You are not required to accept behavior from a relative that you would not accept from a stranger.
Huh?
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Old 10-21-2017, 08:00 AM   #50
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I have a relative, getting a trust from dear dad, which is currently providing for him.
The relative has told me, as soon as dear dad dies, he is getting a lawyer to break the trust because "That money is mine".
I'd be curious if anyone can find a documented case of this, where there were not obvious issues with how the trust was written.

The purpose of the spendthrift trust is to keep the lump sum away from the beneficiary. If it is easily 'broken', there is no point to it. A little searching, and I'm not finding anything indicating that this can be done routinely.

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Old 10-21-2017, 08:27 AM   #51
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Huh?
To clarify: If some stranger guy were taking advantage of your mother, talking her out of money and such, would you tolerate that? If some stranger guy received a large inheritance, spent it all and now wants to live with you and have you pay his bills, would you tolerate that? I think the answer would be NO in both cases. So why should you tolerate it because, by accident of birth, the guy happens to be your brother?
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Old 10-21-2017, 09:29 AM   #52
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It sounds to me that you are dealing with people called "Crazy Makers". That is they will drive you crazy by inflicting their problems and issues on you and then making you responsible for the results, especially if the results are bad.

Crazy Makers are people who create storm centers in their own lives and the lives of others. The book "The Artists Way " describes them very well, and that chapter is worth reading even if one has no interest in being an artist.


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Crazymakers expect special treatment: They suffer a wide panoply of mysterious ailments that require care and attention whenever you have a deadline looming – or anything else that draws your attention from the crazymaker’s demands. The crazymaker cooks her own special meal in a house full of hungry children – and does nothing to feed the kids.

Crazymakers discount your reality: No matter how important your deadline or how critical your work trajectory at the moment, crazymakers will violate your needs. Crazymakers are the people who call you at midnight or 6:00am saying, “I know you asked me not to call you at this time, but…”

Crazymakers triangulate those they deal with: Because crazymakers thrive on energy (your energy), they set people against one another in order to maintain their own power position dead center.
Crazymakers are expert blamers: Nothing that goes wrong is ever their fault, and to hear them tell it, the fault is usually yours.

Crazymakers hate schedules – except their own: If you claim a certain block of time as your own, your crazymaker will find a way to fight you for that time, to mysteriously need things (meaning you) just when you need to be alone and focused on the task in hand.
https://marionann.wordpress.com/2015...ay-crazymaker/
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:08 AM   #53
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I have a relative, getting a trust from dear dad, which is currently providing for him.
The relative has told me, as soon as dear dad dies, he is getting a lawyer to break the trust because "That money is mine".
Quite funny, actually.

Your relative is almost certain to lose, and as a special treat he will find that not only does he have to pay his own lawyer, the trust has paid for the trustee's lawyer.

DW has been thought a number of this type of action as a trust officer. They always fail, but she always feels bad at the amount of money wasted from the trust.

The courts know that trusts are created for a reason, generally the reason is to prevent the beneficiary from getting hold of the money. The courts will honor the wishes of the grantor unless exceptional circumstances arise, like provable incompetence. Any good attorney, though, will make sure that there is no question of competence -- even to the point of getting a contemporaneous medical opinion when the documents are signed.

DW and I were laughing a few weeks ago when she heard that a young acquaintance was planning the same sort of manuever at the urging of her Eddie Jones guy, who obviously wanted to get his mitts on the money. Too bad, really, because Eddie won't be paying a dime towards the legal bills on what is almost certainly an unsuccessful effort.
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:17 AM   #54
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He never married, no savings, no pension. If he gets any money it is spent immediately on travel, etc. He has been enabled and the behavior is entrenched.

Our mom allows him to write checks on her account for health care, car insurance, etc.


There has been some great advice in this post but it has missed the most important part of the OP’s first comments. If broher #2 has the ability to access her accounts there is a major risk of financial abuse. While the mother may be in good health today, this can change subtly over a period of time. You migjt not notice anything until major damage has been done. Your mother needs the services of a good elder law attorney. It is a rapidly expanding area of the legal profession. An elder law attorney can save you a lot of grief. I saw this happen numerous times in my career.
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:31 AM   #55
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... An elder law attorney can save you a lot of grief. I saw this happen numerous times in my career.
Yes. My wife, former SVP with megabank Trust, former Deputy Chair of our state's board on aging, and former delegate to the President's Conference on Aging, estimates that 80% of the elderly have been financially abused. Sometimes by caregivers but, often, by family.
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:35 AM   #56
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Why is he your problem? You are not responsible for his actions. If he goes broke just put him on ignore and be done with him.
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Old 10-21-2017, 10:48 AM   #57
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I have two brothers, age 66 and 68. The youngest can not manage money. He is currently temporarily living with our oldest brother and is self employed - his income is sporadic.

He has been enabled and the behavior is entrenched.
Your post is very revealing. By doing this for him, aren't you continuing the enabling behaviour? That's how enabling works - under the guise of 'helping'.
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Old 10-21-2017, 11:17 AM   #58
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....I'm predicting brother will blow through the inheritance in less than five years and want to move in with me and we'll be stuck with his long term care.
DW already said heck no !
I am much younger, plan to ER in a few months, and supporting him isn't in our budget. .....

Oldest brother and I don't get along, he tends to disagree with any advice I give mom, so won't be an easy discussion. Oldest brother is executor and a family law attorney, he wrote her will. He does have a big heart towards #2 brother, they are very close, thus he is a big part of the enabling problem. ....
I would suggest that you have a discreet discussion with oldest brother about your concerns about brother #2 blowing through his inheritance and that you will not support brother #2 in any way, shape or form if that happens.... that you don't think it is reasonable for someone to have to support a 66 yo sibling that inherits $1 million and blows through it. But rather than making any suggestions on how to address the problem, ask oldest brother how he would suggest that the problem be addressed since he is a family law attorney (and executor).... put the monkey on his back..... and see what he has to say.

Even if he has no response and does nothing, at the least you have made your intentions clear so if it comes to pass and you do what you say then it will not be a surprise to anyone. The fact that you and brothers do not get along well will make it easier. To be honest, if brother #2 ends up homeless given the advantages that he had it would not bother me one iota.
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Old 10-21-2017, 11:26 AM   #59
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Why is he your problem? You are not responsible for his actions. If he goes broke just put him on ignore and be done with him.
Have to agree...cut him loose.....if a drowning man cooperates, you can pull him to shore, but if he grabs hold of you and fights, he can pull you under and you'll both drown.
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Old 10-21-2017, 11:44 AM   #60
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Mother could create a trust for each of her sons, make the terms of each trust confidential. Treat them the same. One is a spendthrift trust, the two others with language appropriate for each. In that way each heir could tell the other "Ya, my inheritance is in a trust too." If the other brother talks about the terms of his trust shame on him. Perhaps direct the trust to invest in something like Wellington, disburse dividends each year for the next 10 years, if heir dies before exhaustion of the trust disburse per stirpes. Don't give any son the option of changing the trusts. My mother put language in her will that said that if any heir challenged it they lost their share of the inheritance.

DO NOT PERMIT THE LAWYER SON TO BE INVOLVED IN THE WRITING OF THE WILL. MOTHER NEEDS HER OWN ATTORNEY.
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