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Old 11-29-2020, 04:47 PM   #81
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If you can't afford to live there, move somewhere less expensive. Property taxes are part of normal household expenses everyone is expected to pay.



Why should some people get special tax breaks while others in exactly the same house on the same street with the same level of services pay much more? As you said: "where did the notion that this is okay come from?"


You make it sound like moving is not a big deal. For a retiree on a fixed income it can be a huge deal. Leaving family, friends, doctors behind. A small business owner may have lived in their paid off home for years, but canít just decide to make more money to pay for a new football field scoreboard. Or to fund a lucrative pension for teachers when they themselves wonít have a pension. Being forced to move is a big deal.
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Old 11-29-2020, 04:55 PM   #82
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Why should some people get special tax breaks while others in exactly the same house on the same street with the same level of services pay much more? As you said: "where did the notion that this is okay come from?"
The difference, and I think it is a huge and very relevant one, is that the folks buying in at the higher price have a very good idea of what the property taxes are. Then if they decide they can afford those taxes and move in anyway, that's okay.

What is NOT okay is dramatically increasing the tax rate on an existing house because a bunch of other people decided they wanted to live there too.
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Old 11-29-2020, 04:56 PM   #83
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You make it sound like moving is not a big deal. For a retiree on a fixed income it can be a huge deal. Leaving family, friends, doctors behind. A small business owner may have lived in their paid off home for years, but canít just decide to make more money to pay for a new football field scoreboard. Or to fund a lucrative pension for teachers when they themselves wonít have a pension. Being forced to move is a big deal.
I know that moving is a big deal. It's also a big deal when a young couple can't afford to buy a house because they have to support the neighbors next door. The vast majority of the US states and all of Canada somehow manage to make it work by charging everyone with a similar house a similar rate.
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:08 PM   #84
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The difference, and I think it is a huge and very relevant one, is that the folks buying in at the higher price have a very good idea of what the property taxes are. Then if they decide they can afford those taxes and move in anyway, that's okay.

What is NOT okay is dramatically increasing the tax rate on an existing house because a bunch of other people decided they wanted to live there too.
BUT, what if those taxes had been increased every year, to adjust for the going rate? Maybe the owner would sell at some point? Maybe housing prices would not escalate as fast because more houses are on the market?
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Old 11-29-2020, 05:51 PM   #85
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BUT, what if those taxes had been increased every year, to adjust for the going rate? Maybe the owner would sell at some point? Maybe housing prices would not escalate as fast because more houses are on the market?


In my area housing values have increased approximately 60% in the past twenty years because they keep turning farmland into housing developments. Property taxes have doubled, with the largest percentage increases being the school taxes. Assessments havenít gone up, but rates have. The older folks are really getting squeezed with property taxes.
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:03 PM   #86
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In my area housing values have increased approximately 60% in the past twenty years because they keep turning farmland into housing developments. Property taxes have doubled, with the largest percentage increases being the school taxes. Assessments havenít gone up, but rates have. The older folks are really getting squeezed with property taxes.
Those numbers are not out of line. My house has quadrupled in value in the last 20 years. Taxes have gone up about 50%...but gradually and at the same rate for everyone.
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:53 PM   #87
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In my area housing values have increased approximately 60% in the past twenty years because they keep turning farmland into housing developments. Property taxes have doubled, with the largest percentage increases being the school taxes. Assessments havenít gone up, but rates have. The older folks are really getting squeezed with property taxes.
Well, inflation has increased costs by over 50% in those 20 years: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/, so the housing increase is not out of line.

Taxes are up by a little more. Typical.

While I am sure there are some "older folks getting squeezed", I frankly hear more bitching by people that can well afford it, but they are back to thinking 20 years ago when the taxes were so much lower.
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Old 11-29-2020, 07:07 PM   #88
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Well, inflation has increased costs by over 50% in those 20 years: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/, so the housing increase is not out of line.



Taxes are up by a little more. Typical.



While I am sure there are some "older folks getting squeezed", I frankly hear more bitching by people that can well afford it, but they are back to thinking 20 years ago when the taxes were so much lower.


Some of these folks end up in lines at the local food banks. Some are forced to move in with other family. But no worries, the teacherís pensions are well funded and the high school football field looks awesome.
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Old 11-29-2020, 07:32 PM   #89
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.... While I am sure there are some "older folks getting squeezed", I frankly hear more bitching by people that can well afford it, but they are back to thinking 20 years ago when the taxes were so much lower.
+1 I guess that is the issue I have with some of these schemes to reduce long-time resident property taxes.... while it helps those for whom escalating property taxes are increasingly unaffordable as it is designed to it also helps those who can afford to pay... that is why I prefer to have the property tax based on market value assessments and the same rate for everyone and then add to that property tax relief based on income to help those that can't afford their property taxes.

While that approach has its own warts (similar to ACA subsidies for the wealthy who manage their income)... the warts are much smaller than many of the other approaches to stabilize property taxes that result is HUGE inequities.
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Old 11-29-2020, 07:46 PM   #90
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Some of these folks end up in lines at the local food banks. Some are forced to move in with other family. But no worries, the teacherís pensions are well funded and the high school football field looks awesome.
Well, I don't have a pension, teacher or otherwise, and haven't been to a High School football game in 30 years.

Anecdotes of fictional persons are not sufficient to shape public policy (at least they should not be). With 350+ million in this country, there is always someone being over looked.

Staying out of politics, so I will leave it there.
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:48 PM   #91
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From a public policy and economic equity perspective it is hard for me to justify that forcing non-resident and newer resident homeowners to pay more and allowing long-term resident homeowners to pay less... and ofter far less... is a good idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to voluntarily pay more, but I just don't see it as a good idea from a public policy perspective.

Why can't we all just pay our own way/fair share?


I get it. I have friends and family that would be forced out of their homes if they were required to pay taxes at the market rate of newcomers to the neighborhood that have bid up the values to remarkable levels. These well heeled buyers can afford to indulge in upscale improvements to these tired old homes while folks that have maintained the neighborhood for 30 yrs or sometimes multiple generations can barely afford the high cost to maintain older structures. They canít afford to move unless they go to a much lower COL area.
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:01 PM   #92
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I get it. I have friends and family that would be forced out of their homes if they were required to pay taxes at the market rate of newcomers to the neighborhood that have bid up the values to remarkable levels. These well heeled buyers can afford to indulge in upscale improvements to these tired old homes while folks that have maintained the neighborhood for 30 yrs or sometimes multiple generations can barely afford the high cost to maintain older structures. They canít afford to move unless they go to a much lower COL area.
Are we supposed to feel sorry for people who can sell their house for a "remarkable value"? Take the money and run. I can sell my house today for more than 4 times what I paid for it 23 years ago. When the time comes to sell I'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

It's my home today but it's just a house.
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:08 PM   #93
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Those numbers are not out of line. My house has quadrupled in value in the last 20 years. Taxes have gone up about 50%...but gradually and at the same rate for everyone.


It seems like your argument is that your property taxes should have quadrupled in 20 yrs instead of increasing only 50%.
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:14 PM   #94
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Well, I don't have a pension, teacher or otherwise, and haven't been to a High School football game in 30 years.



Anecdotes of fictional persons are not sufficient to shape public policy (at least they should not be). With 350+ million in this country, there is always someone being over looked.



Staying out of politics, so I will leave it there.


These arenít fictional in my area. Lines at food banks are very long. While Pennsylvania is relatively retirement friendly, property taxes rise significantly faster than property values. Not everyone is as well off as you or me.
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Old 11-29-2020, 09:15 PM   #95
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It seems like your argument is that your property taxes should have quadrupled in 20 yrs instead of increasing only 50%.
There's no need to increase property taxes 400% when the cost to run the city only went up 50%. As property values went up the tax rate charged on the assessed value went down to keep in line with the actual operating costs.
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Old 11-30-2020, 02:29 PM   #96
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There's no need to increase property taxes 400% when the cost to run the city only went up 50%. As property values went up the tax rate charged on the assessed value went down to keep in line with the actual operating costs.
ok. That makes sense I guess.
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Old 12-04-2020, 02:27 PM   #97
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WADR, that sounds like California Dreamin' to me.... from what I have heard it sounds like there is a giant sucking sound of people fleeing California.
In 2019 Calif. lost 653,000 people and gained 480,000 people with a net loss of 173,000. A piddling number in a population of about 40 million residents.

I have compared many other states and none can compare to California. Most are low wage states with huge influxes of Federal money to support them. Calif. tax dollars pour into Washington to pay for these basically welfare states in that they take more federal tax dollars than they contribute. "High tax, traditionally Democratic states (blue), subsidize low-tax, traditionally Republican states (red)--in a big way." AP News Fact Check.

"California's $2.6 trillion dollar economy is the largest of any state. It's closest comparison on a global stage is India, which is home to 1.3 billion people." USA Today

I would have to be crazy to move my businesses out of California.
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Old 12-04-2020, 04:18 PM   #98
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... I would have to be crazy to move my businesses out of California.
Interesting... there are many, many thriving businesses based outside of California. IIRC, Tesla just decided to build a massive electric vehicle factory in Austin, TX so I guess they are crazy.

I like California, have relatives there and have visited there many times, but I have no desire to live there... too busy, too crowded and too expensive for my tastes.
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Old 12-04-2020, 04:35 PM   #99
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Interesting... there are many, many thriving businesses based outside of California. IIRC, Tesla just decided to build a massive electric vehicle factory in Austin, TX so I guess they are crazy.

I like California, have relatives there and have visited there many times, but I have no desire to live there... too busy, too crowded and too expensive for my tastes.

I grew up there and have no desire to move there again. Iíve been back to visit many times, but may not get back again. Donít miss it one bit.
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Old 12-04-2020, 10:18 PM   #100
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California has earthquakes, wildfires, rattlesnakes, and a bunch of people from other places. Traffic is awful. Do NOT move here.

(Inspired by REWahoo's Texas list)
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