New owner's property tax liability much higher than current owners.

[ivinsfan]

That's a win-win for you. But it's not a win for a young couple from a somewhere else who might want to move there. Property taxes where I live are based on assessed value and not unfairly weighted towards old people we have a nice mix of young and old in the neighborhood.

I'm 58 and starting to enjoy the occasional senior discount, but I don't need or want a young couple starting out subsidizing my property taxes.

Yep someone has to pay....it's called a property tax and I am amazed at the people that think it's fine if I pay half of what you pay for the same house.

 

[ivinsfan]

The only fair way to assess property taxes is to have everyone pay the same rate. If you can't afford to live there and pay the same as your neighbors then you have the choice to move somewhere more affordable.

Property taxes are getting ridiculous. For example in some states you pay extra taxes on a second home because you "don't live there full time". Well if you don't live there full time you don't have kids in school or use city services as much. I'm fine with the idea you pay the same as everyone else, but you should pay MORE and use less services? It's a wealth tax and don't pretend otherwise.

 

[Walt34]

Where did this inalienable right to continue to live on a home that you can no longer afford come from?

Um, maybe because their house is paid for? Yes, really. They have no difficulty at all affording to own and maintain the house. But often due to circumstances entirely outside their control their property taxes go berserk.

Where did the notion that this is okay come from?

 

[Dash man]

Um, maybe because their house is paid for? Yes, really. They have no difficulty at all affording to own and maintain the house. But often due to circumstances entirely outside their control their property taxes go berserk.

Where did the notion that this is okay come from?

Agreed. We’ve been in our house twenty years and property taxes have doubled. We have no kids in school, but I don’t have a problem paying some of that. We can afford it. But people shouldn’t be forced to give up their homes because they can’t afford tax increases.

 

[Music Lover]

Um, maybe because their house is paid for? Yes, really. They have no difficulty at all affording to own and maintain the house. But often due to circumstances entirely outside their control their property taxes go berserk.

Where did the notion that this is okay come from?

If you can't afford to live there, move somewhere less expensive. Property taxes are part of normal household expenses everyone is expected to pay.

Why should some people get special tax breaks while others in exactly the same house on the same street with the same level of services pay much more? As you said: "where did the notion that this is okay come from?"

 

[Dash man]

If you can't afford to live there, move somewhere less expensive. Property taxes are part of normal household expenses everyone is expected to pay.



Why should some people get special tax breaks while others in exactly the same house on the same street with the same level of services pay much more? As you said: "where did the notion that this is okay come from?"

You make it sound like moving is not a big deal. For a retiree on a fixed income it can be a huge deal. Leaving family, friends, doctors behind. A small business owner may have lived in their paid off home for years, but can’t just decide to make more money to pay for a new football field scoreboard. Or to fund a lucrative pension for teachers when they themselves won’t have a pension. Being forced to move is a big deal.

 

[Walt34]

Why should some people get special tax breaks while others in exactly the same house on the same street with the same level of services pay much more? As you said: "where did the notion that this is okay come from?"

The difference, and I think it is a huge and very relevant one, is that the folks buying in at the higher price have a very good idea of what the property taxes are. Then if they decide they can afford those taxes and move in anyway, that's okay.

What is NOT okay is dramatically increasing the tax rate on an existing house because a bunch of other people decided they wanted to live there too.

 

[Music Lover]

You make it sound like moving is not a big deal. For a retiree on a fixed income it can be a huge deal. Leaving family, friends, doctors behind. A small business owner may have lived in their paid off home for years, but can’t just decide to make more money to pay for a new football field scoreboard. Or to fund a lucrative pension for teachers when they themselves won’t have a pension. Being forced to move is a big deal.

I know that moving is a big deal. It's also a big deal when a young couple can't afford to buy a house because they have to support the neighbors next door. The vast majority of the US states and all of Canada somehow manage to make it work by charging everyone with a similar house a similar rate.

 

[CardsFan]

The difference, and I think it is a huge and very relevant one, is that the folks buying in at the higher price have a very good idea of what the property taxes are. Then if they decide they can afford those taxes and move in anyway, that's okay.

What is NOT okay is dramatically increasing the tax rate on an existing house because a bunch of other people decided they wanted to live there too.

BUT, what if those taxes had been increased every year, to adjust for the going rate? Maybe the owner would sell at some point? Maybe housing prices would not escalate as fast because more houses are on the market?

 

[Dash man]

BUT, what if those taxes had been increased every year, to adjust for the going rate? Maybe the owner would sell at some point? Maybe housing prices would not escalate as fast because more houses are on the market?

In my area housing values have increased approximately 60% in the past twenty years because they keep turning farmland into housing developments. Property taxes have doubled, with the largest percentage increases being the school taxes. Assessments haven’t gone up, but rates have. The older folks are really getting squeezed with property taxes.

 

[Music Lover]

In my area housing values have increased approximately 60% in the past twenty years because they keep turning farmland into housing developments. Property taxes have doubled, with the largest percentage increases being the school taxes. Assessments haven’t gone up, but rates have. The older folks are really getting squeezed with property taxes.

Those numbers are not out of line. My house has quadrupled in value in the last 20 years. Taxes have gone up about 50%...but gradually and at the same rate for everyone.

 

[CardsFan]

In my area housing values have increased approximately 60% in the past twenty years because they keep turning farmland into housing developments. Property taxes have doubled, with the largest percentage increases being the school taxes. Assessments haven’t gone up, but rates have. The older folks are really getting squeezed with property taxes.

Well, inflation has increased costs by over 50% in those 20 years: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/, so the housing increase is not out of line.

Taxes are up by a little more. Typical.

While I am sure there are some "older folks getting squeezed", I frankly hear more bitching by people that can well afford it, but they are back to thinking 20 years ago when the taxes were so much lower.

 

[Dash man]

Well, inflation has increased costs by over 50% in those 20 years: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/, so the housing increase is not out of line.



Taxes are up by a little more. Typical.



While I am sure there are some "older folks getting squeezed", I frankly hear more bitching by people that can well afford it, but they are back to thinking 20 years ago when the taxes were so much lower.

Some of these folks end up in lines at the local food banks. Some are forced to move in with other family. But no worries, the teacher’s pensions are well funded and the high school football field looks awesome.

 

[pb4uski]

.... While I am sure there are some "older folks getting squeezed", I frankly hear more bitching by people that can well afford it, but they are back to thinking 20 years ago when the taxes were so much lower.

+1 I guess that is the issue I have with some of these schemes to reduce long-time resident property taxes.... while it helps those for whom escalating property taxes are increasingly unaffordable as it is designed to it also helps those who can afford to pay... that is why I prefer to have the property tax based on market value assessments and the same rate for everyone and then add to that property tax relief based on income to help those that can't afford their property taxes.

While that approach has its own warts (similar to ACA subsidies for the wealthy who manage their income)... the warts are much smaller than many of the other approaches to stabilize property taxes that result is HUGE inequities.

 

[CardsFan]

Some of these folks end up in lines at the local food banks. Some are forced to move in with other family. But no worries, the teacher’s pensions are well funded and the high school football field looks awesome.

Well, I don't have a pension, teacher or otherwise, and haven't been to a High School football game in 30 years.

Anecdotes of fictional persons are not sufficient to shape public policy (at least they should not be). With 350+ million in this country, there is always someone being over looked.

Staying out of politics, so I will leave it there.

 

[jazz4cash]

From a public policy and economic equity perspective it is hard for me to justify that forcing non-resident and newer resident homeowners to pay more and allowing long-term resident homeowners to pay less... and ofter far less... is a good idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to voluntarily pay more, but I just don't see it as a good idea from a public policy perspective.

Why can't we all just pay our own way/fair share?

I get it. I have friends and family that would be forced out of their homes if they were required to pay taxes at the market rate of newcomers to the neighborhood that have bid up the values to remarkable levels. These well heeled buyers can afford to indulge in upscale improvements to these tired old homes while folks that have maintained the neighborhood for 30 yrs or sometimes multiple generations can barely afford the high cost to maintain older structures. They can’t afford to move unless they go to a much lower COL area.

 

[Music Lover]

I get it. I have friends and family that would be forced out of their homes if they were required to pay taxes at the market rate of newcomers to the neighborhood that have bid up the values to remarkable levels. These well heeled buyers can afford to indulge in upscale improvements to these tired old homes while folks that have maintained the neighborhood for 30 yrs or sometimes multiple generations can barely afford the high cost to maintain older structures. They can’t afford to move unless they go to a much lower COL area.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for people who can sell their house for a "remarkable value"? Take the money and run. I can sell my house today for more than 4 times what I paid for it 23 years ago. When the time comes to sell I'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

It's my home today but it's just a house.

 

[jazz4cash]

Those numbers are not out of line. My house has quadrupled in value in the last 20 years. Taxes have gone up about 50%...but gradually and at the same rate for everyone.

It seems like your argument is that your property taxes should have quadrupled in 20 yrs instead of increasing only 50%.

 

[Dash man]

Well, I don't have a pension, teacher or otherwise, and haven't been to a High School football game in 30 years.



Anecdotes of fictional persons are not sufficient to shape public policy (at least they should not be). With 350+ million in this country, there is always someone being over looked.



Staying out of politics, so I will leave it there.

These aren’t fictional in my area. Lines at food banks are very long. While Pennsylvania is relatively retirement friendly, property taxes rise significantly faster than property values. Not everyone is as well off as you or me.

 

[Music Lover]

It seems like your argument is that your property taxes should have quadrupled in 20 yrs instead of increasing only 50%.

There's no need to increase property taxes 400% when the cost to run the city only went up 50%. As property values went up the tax rate charged on the assessed value went down to keep in line with the actual operating costs.

 

[jazz4cash]

There's no need to increase property taxes 400% when the cost to run the city only went up 50%. As property values went up the tax rate charged on the assessed value went down to keep in line with the actual operating costs.

ok. That makes sense I guess.

 

[boont]

Calif. Population

WADR, that sounds like California Dreamin' to me.... from what I have heard it sounds like there is a giant sucking sound of people fleeing California.

In 2019 Calif. lost 653,000 people and gained 480,000 people with a net loss of 173,000. A piddling number in a population of about 40 million residents.

I have compared many other states and none can compare to California. Most are low wage states with huge influxes of Federal money to support them. Calif. tax dollars pour into Washington to pay for these basically welfare states in that they take more federal tax dollars than they contribute. "High tax, traditionally Democratic states (blue), subsidize low-tax, traditionally Republican states (red)--in a big way." AP News Fact Check.

"California's $2.6 trillion dollar economy is the largest of any state. It's closest comparison on a global stage is India, which is home to 1.3 billion people." USA Today

I would have to be crazy to move my businesses out of California.

 

[pb4uski]

... I would have to be crazy to move my businesses out of California.

Interesting... there are many, many thriving businesses based outside of California. IIRC, Tesla just decided to build a massive electric vehicle factory in Austin, TX so I guess they are crazy.

I like California, have relatives there and have visited there many times, but I have no desire to live there... too busy, too crowded and too expensive for my tastes.

 

[Dash man]

Interesting... there are many, many thriving businesses based outside of California. IIRC, Tesla just decided to build a massive electric vehicle factory in Austin, TX so I guess they are crazy.

I like California, have relatives there and have visited there many times, but I have no desire to live there... too busy, too crowded and too expensive for my tastes.

I grew up there and have no desire to move there again. I’ve been back to visit many times, but may not get back again. Don’t miss it one bit.

 

[rodi]

California has earthquakes, wildfires, rattlesnakes, and a bunch of people from other places. Traffic is awful. Do NOT move here.

(Inspired by REWahoo's Texas list)