Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-13-2017, 03:49 PM   #121
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Bruce Bartlett (tax policy expert, worked in Reagan and Bush 1 administrations) did a comparison of total taxes plus health care costs for OECD countries. You can find it here https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...x-burden/?_r=0



You can see from this chart that, based on his work, the US and Canada pay about the same % of GDP for total taxes plus health care, and the US is very close to the OECD average.
Michael,

This is what our Scandinavian neighbour tells us as well. But she also adds that for that taxes they get higher pensions, excelent healthcare for *everybody* and free college education for their kids.

She is a visiting University Professor.
TreeHugger is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-13-2017, 04:00 PM   #122
Administrator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland again!
Posts: 35,213
Scandinavian countries clearly have much higher total rates of tax plus health care - in the range of 10% - 15% of GDP, so it's not a valid comparison.
MichaelB is online now  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:03 PM   #123
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
exnavynuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Acworth
Posts: 1,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeHugger View Post
Michael,

This is what our Scandinavian neighbour tells us as well. But she also adds that for that taxes they get higher pensions, excelent healthcare for *everybody* and free college education for their kids.

She is a visiting University Professor.
Yeah, we often forget about the other things those higher taxes fund (like cheaper education), as healthcare is the primary topic that relative tax rates seem to be brought up in. IIRC, Canada's cost to go to college is quite a bit lower than what it is in the U.S.

Yeah, I think this is a bit cheaper-
Quote:
Canada

Education costs: $5,974

Median income: $26,623

Affordability: 22.44%

Highest ranked university: University of Toronto (19)

Number of universities in the top 100: 5
vs

Quote:
USA

Education costs: $13,856*

Median income: $26,990

Affordability: 51.34%

Highest ranked university: California Institute of Technology (1)

Number of universities in the top 100: 51
From 2012 Here's What College Education Costs Students Around The World - Business Insider
exnavynuke is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:09 PM   #124
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Scandinavian countries clearly have much higher total rates of tax plus health care - in the range of 10% - 15% of GDP, so it's not a valid comparison.
Swedish to be specific. Not if you add in Property taxes on 1200000 house that she owns. In Sweden property taxes are negligible compared to US.

I have no reason to believe that she lies
TreeHugger is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:09 PM   #125
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fedup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 4,032
Are you serious about comparing Universty of Toronto to Caltech. There is only one Caltech and it should be compared to private university like MIT, not public University. Perhaps Berkeley is a better comparison.
Fedup is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:13 PM   #126
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
exnavynuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Acworth
Posts: 1,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedup View Post
Are you serious about comparing Universty of Toronto to Caltech. There is only one Caltech and it should be compared to private university like MIT, not public University. Perhaps Berkeley is a better comparison.
Those aren't the education costs for the mentioned universities.... the article just happened to also include information on university rankings of various countries. The costs are "average". The universities mentioned are the "top" university in the country according to the rankings referenced by the article (which I linked in my post).

For reference though, Cal Tech will cost $68,901 for a freshman year (two semesters). U of Toronto will cost a freshman $17,117. (both numbers assume no scholarships etc and only basic required costs) https://finaid.caltech.edu/costs http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/admissions/tuition-fees
exnavynuke is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:20 PM   #127
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fedup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 4,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by exnavynuke View Post
Those aren't the education costs for the mentioned universities.... the article just happened to also include information on university rankings of various countries. The costs are "average". The universities mentioned are the "top" university in the country according to the rankings referenced by the article (which I linked in my post).

For reference though, Cal Tech will cost $68,901 for a freshman year (two semesters). U of Toronto will cost a freshman $17,117. (both numbers assume no scholarships etc and only basic required costs) https://finaid.caltech.edu/costs Tuition & Fees | Admissions & Student Recruitment
Maybe of the strong dollar. But years ago when my daughter was accepted to McGill, equivalent to Harvard of Canada, and I checked the cost was nearly $23,000 without room and board. I think the cost is different for internationals and STEM majors. I'm surprised that U of a Toronto is that much cheaper than McGill. Are we comparing apples with apples?
Fedup is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:23 PM   #128
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
exnavynuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Acworth
Posts: 1,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedup View Post
Maybe of the strong dollar. But years ago when my daughter was accepted to McGill, equivalent to Harvard of Canada, and I checked the cost was nearly $23,000 without room and board. I think the cost is different for internationals and STEM majors. I'm surprised that U of a Toronto is that much cheaper than McGill. Are we comparing apples with apples?
The costs I'm listing are as "apples to apples" as I can find to make them. What do public Canadian universities cost Canadian students vs what do public US universities cost US students (assuming they get in-state tuition).
exnavynuke is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:27 PM   #129
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fedup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 4,032
They charge more for STEM majors, I think we don't.
Fedup is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:31 PM   #130
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
exnavynuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Acworth
Posts: 1,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedup View Post
They charge more for STEM majors, I think we don't.
Management and Computer Science are the only majors at University of Toronto with higher tuition costs. Regardless of that, the numbers I posted earlier are the "average" costs (across all majors) for students attending college and show that we're much more expensive on average for a college education relative to Canada.
exnavynuke is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:36 PM   #131
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedup View Post
Are you serious about comparing Universty of Toronto to Caltech. There is only one Caltech and it should be compared to private university like MIT, not public University. Perhaps Berkeley is a better comparison.
Fedup,

I don't think that report compares Calltech to University of Toronto. Also "affordability" means how many people *cannot" afford *average* university education. (and it lists average cost)

That must be because in that report cost in Sweden is 600 USD with affordability of 2.8%. I am sure more then 2.8% of Swedish families can afford 600 USD per year.
TreeHugger is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:41 PM   #132
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
exnavynuke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Acworth
Posts: 1,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeHugger View Post
Fedup,

I don't think that report compares Calltech to University of Toronto. Also "affordability" means how many people *cannot" afford *average* university education. (and it lists average cost)

That must be because in that report cost in Sweden is 600 USD with affordability of 2.8%. I am sure more then 2.8% of Swedish families can afford 600 USD per year.
"Affordability" as used in the article is the cost to attend divided by the median income. The lower the %, the more affordable college is considered there by the article. Sweden's 2.89% affordability means it takes only 2.89% of the median income per year to cover the costs going to college full time.
exnavynuke is offline  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:47 PM   #133
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: The Great Wide Open
Posts: 2,839
Don't some of the Scandinavian countries also get North Sea oil revenue also?
Winemaker is online now  
Old 03-13-2017, 10:22 PM   #134
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Fedup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Southern Cal
Posts: 4,032
This thread got me thinking, are other countries have private colleges like USA, or do they only have public colleges. I mean really decent ones, not Phoenix University type.
Fedup is offline  
Older Americans may have to postpone retirement under New health bill
Old 03-14-2017, 07:01 AM   #135
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,190
Older Americans may have to postpone retirement under New health bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrabbler1 View Post
I worked in the insurance industry for 23 years. I worked on rule change filings which included offsets the way I described them in my other post all the time. Those rule change filings were approved by state insurance departments nearly every time.

Many of the rate change filings included decreases. Rates did not always go up. Within an auto insurance filing (the ones I worked on), there were rate changes for many coverages. Most of the time, some coverages saw increases, some saw decreases.

The auto insurance industry is very competitive. This puts downward pressure on rates. Many state insurance departments rejected rate increases if they were too high or if they objected to some of our actuarial estimates contained in the methodology we used. This also kept downward pressure on rate increases.

Plainly put, you don't know what you are talking about. Sorry.


Nope. I was right. The Congressional Budget Office support my numbers. 24 million Americans will not have insurance because they simply cannot afford it. The CBO study proves you are wrong. I don't know why you are even discussing car insurance. The rate of inflation in medical insurance and rising cost of healthcare is very different from auto insurance. Sure, I can easily find a cheaper auto insurance - everyone knows that.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/13/politi...are/index.html
__________________
No to consumerism, Living a simple life, enjoying the experience - not the material stuff
cyber888 is offline  
Old 03-14-2017, 07:10 AM   #136
Administrator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland again!
Posts: 35,213
We can disagree without being disagreeable, so let's keep it friendly, eh?
MichaelB is online now  
Old 03-14-2017, 07:35 AM   #137
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 17,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
Looking for a patsy is a waste of time. We need to look at why drugs in the USA are so much more expensive than the same or similar drugs in places like Canada and Europe. I suspect it is a combination of factors including everything from greed to government rules and regs that make it hard to have a truly competitive market for drugs.
At least one reason why drug prices are so high is that pharma companies violate the antitrust laws.

Attorney General: AG Jepsen: 40 State Attorneys General Now Plaintiffs in Federal Generic Drug Antitrust Lawsuit

Attorney General: AG Jepsen: Conn. Joins Antitrust Lawsuit over Allegations that Drug Company Illegally Blocked Generic Opioid Treatment from Market
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is online now  
Old 03-14-2017, 07:43 AM   #138
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Flyover America
Posts: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by exnavynuke View Post
Yeah, we often forget about the other things those higher taxes fund (like cheaper education), as healthcare is the primary topic that relative tax rates seem to be brought up in. IIRC, Canada's cost to go to college is quite a bit lower than what it is in the U.S.

Yeah, I think this is a bit cheaper-


vs



From 2012 Here's What College Education Costs Students Around The World - Business Insider

To be fair you would have to include the "*" (appx. $7000 for public education; Affordability 26%). When you do that it appears there is little difference between the two. The US tax dollars spent for defense over most other countries, I believe to be a factor, and that defense does support other countries as well as US.
capjak is offline  
Old 03-14-2017, 07:59 AM   #139
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyber888 View Post
Nope. I was right. The Congressional Budget Office support my numbers. 24 million Americans will not have insurance because they simply cannot afford it. The CBO study proves you are wrong. I don't know why you are even discussing car insurance. The rate of inflation in medical insurance and rising cost of healthcare is very different from auto insurance. Sure, I can easily find a cheaper auto insurance - everyone knows that.

CBO report: 24 million fewer insured by 2026 under GOP health care bill - CNNPolitics.com
Wrong again. First, I was explaining how revenue-neutral rule changes are filed and approved with state insurance departments using actuarially sound principles. It makes no difference which line of insurance it is. The actuarially sound principle of revenue-neutrality remains. In an earlier post, I explained how a change from 3:1 to 5:1 for age rating is done on a revenue-neutral basis and how that can reduce rates for younger people while raising rates for older people. Why you can sit there and tell me that what I did in my 23 years working in the insurance industry was false or wrong or whatever is simply baffling, if not arrogant. I was THERE, making those filings with state insurance departments, and seeing the approval letters in response. YOU were not there.

And here is a little gem from the CBO report which is consistent with my revenue-neutral offsets explanation.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52486

"Although average premiums would increase prior to 2020 and decrease starting in 2020, CBO and JCT estimate that changes in premiums relative to those under current law would differ significantly for people of different ages because of a change in age-rating rules. Under the legislation, insurers would be allowed to generally charge five times more for older enrollees than younger ones rather than three times more as under current law, substantially reducing premiums for young adults and substantially raising premiums for older people."

In my example, I chose a 50-50 mix of people just to make the algebra easier to demonstrate. To preserve revenue-neutrality, the rates in my example rose 11% for older people while dropping 33% for younger people. I was refuting your claim that rates would only rise for one group while being unchanged for the other.

While auto insurance is not a perfect comparison to health insurance, remember that a good part of auto insurance covers medical losses from auto accidents. During the 1990s, when HMOs became more widely used, the auto insurance coverages which included medical losses (No-fault, Liability, Medical Payments, Uninsured Motorists) saw declines in their rates. In the many rate filings I oversaw during my long career, there were some increases, some decreases, and some mixes of increases and decreases based on loss experience.
__________________
Retired in late 2008 at age 45. Cashed in company stock, bought a lot of shares in a big bond fund and am living nicely off its dividends. IRA, SS, and a pension await me at age 60 and later. No kids, no debts.

"I want my money working for me instead of me working for my money!"
scrabbler1 is offline  
Old 03-14-2017, 08:38 AM   #140
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
photoguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,301
There aren't any private universities in Canada. But if you compare a top tier Canadian school like University of Waterloo (tuition = 12-14k for engineering/CS) it's very similar to say UC Berkeley (tuition = 14k).

Of course the exchange rate fluctuates quite a bit and right now the CAD is down relative to US. But it wasn't that long ago they were at par.

Note: waterloo has differential pricing based on major. If you go into arts your tuition could be as little as 6k per year. Not sure if this type of pricing is canada wide or just at UoW.
photoguy is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Older Americans attitudes towards work and retirement jollystomper FIRE and Money 6 10-14-2013 06:14 PM
Should I postpone investing to pay off student loans amh031000 Young Dreamers 15 09-17-2013 07:30 PM
Advisors Expect Most Clients To Postpone Retirements mickeyd FIRE and Money 20 02-22-2013 11:28 AM
chemo and postpone ER peonyprincess Health and Early Retirement 20 10-08-2012 10:22 AM
Economic Insecurity and Older Americans MichaelB FIRE and Money 119 04-05-2012 02:03 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:32 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.