Older Americans may have to postpone retirement under New health bill

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Are you serious about comparing Universty of Toronto to Caltech. There is only one Caltech and it should be compared to private university like MIT, not public University. Perhaps Berkeley is a better comparison.

Those aren't the education costs for the mentioned universities.... the article just happened to also include information on university rankings of various countries. The costs are "average". The universities mentioned are the "top" university in the country according to the rankings referenced by the article (which I linked in my post).

For reference though, Cal Tech will cost $68,901 for a freshman year (two semesters). U of Toronto will cost a freshman $17,117. (both numbers assume no scholarships etc and only basic required costs) https://finaid.caltech.edu/costs http://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/admissions/tuition-fees
 
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Those aren't the education costs for the mentioned universities.... the article just happened to also include information on university rankings of various countries. The costs are "average". The universities mentioned are the "top" university in the country according to the rankings referenced by the article (which I linked in my post).

For reference though, Cal Tech will cost $68,901 for a freshman year (two semesters). U of Toronto will cost a freshman $17,117. (both numbers assume no scholarships etc and only basic required costs) https://finaid.caltech.edu/costs Tuition & Fees | Admissions & Student Recruitment
Maybe of the strong dollar. But years ago when my daughter was accepted to McGill, equivalent to Harvard of Canada, and I checked the cost was nearly $23,000 without room and board. I think the cost is different for internationals and STEM majors. I'm surprised that U of a Toronto is that much cheaper than McGill. Are we comparing apples with apples?
 
Maybe of the strong dollar. But years ago when my daughter was accepted to McGill, equivalent to Harvard of Canada, and I checked the cost was nearly $23,000 without room and board. I think the cost is different for internationals and STEM majors. I'm surprised that U of a Toronto is that much cheaper than McGill. Are we comparing apples with apples?

The costs I'm listing are as "apples to apples" as I can find to make them. What do public Canadian universities cost Canadian students vs what do public US universities cost US students (assuming they get in-state tuition).
 
They charge more for STEM majors, I think we don't.

Management and Computer Science are the only majors at University of Toronto with higher tuition costs. Regardless of that, the numbers I posted earlier are the "average" costs (across all majors) for students attending college and show that we're much more expensive on average for a college education relative to Canada.
 
Are you serious about comparing Universty of Toronto to Caltech. There is only one Caltech and it should be compared to private university like MIT, not public University. Perhaps Berkeley is a better comparison.

Fedup,

I don't think that report compares Calltech to University of Toronto. Also "affordability" means how many people *cannot" afford *average* university education. (and it lists average cost)

That must be because in that report cost in Sweden is 600 USD with affordability of 2.8%. :LOL: I am sure more then 2.8% of Swedish families can afford 600 USD per year.
 
Fedup,

I don't think that report compares Calltech to University of Toronto. Also "affordability" means how many people *cannot" afford *average* university education. (and it lists average cost)

That must be because in that report cost in Sweden is 600 USD with affordability of 2.8%. :LOL: I am sure more then 2.8% of Swedish families can afford 600 USD per year.

"Affordability" as used in the article is the cost to attend divided by the median income. The lower the %, the more affordable college is considered there by the article. Sweden's 2.89% affordability means it takes only 2.89% of the median income per year to cover the costs going to college full time.
 
This thread got me thinking, are other countries have private colleges like USA, or do they only have public colleges. I mean really decent ones, not Phoenix University type.
 
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I worked in the insurance industry for 23 years. I worked on rule change filings which included offsets the way I described them in my other post all the time. Those rule change filings were approved by state insurance departments nearly every time.

Many of the rate change filings included decreases. Rates did not always go up. Within an auto insurance filing (the ones I worked on), there were rate changes for many coverages. Most of the time, some coverages saw increases, some saw decreases.

The auto insurance industry is very competitive. This puts downward pressure on rates. Many state insurance departments rejected rate increases if they were too high or if they objected to some of our actuarial estimates contained in the methodology we used. This also kept downward pressure on rate increases.

Plainly put, you don't know what you are talking about. Sorry.



Nope. I was right. The Congressional Budget Office support my numbers. 24 million Americans will not have insurance because they simply cannot afford it. The CBO study proves you are wrong. I don't know why you are even discussing car insurance. The rate of inflation in medical insurance and rising cost of healthcare is very different from auto insurance. Sure, I can easily find a cheaper auto insurance - everyone knows that.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/13/politics/cbo-report-health-care/index.html
 
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We can disagree without being disagreeable, so let's keep it friendly, eh? :)
 
Looking for a patsy is a waste of time. We need to look at why drugs in the USA are so much more expensive than the same or similar drugs in places like Canada and Europe. I suspect it is a combination of factors including everything from greed to government rules and regs that make it hard to have a truly competitive market for drugs.

At least one reason why drug prices are so high is that pharma companies violate the antitrust laws.

Attorney General: AG Jepsen: 40 State Attorneys General Now Plaintiffs in Federal Generic Drug Antitrust Lawsuit

Attorney General: AG Jepsen: Conn. Joins Antitrust Lawsuit over Allegations that Drug Company Illegally Blocked Generic Opioid Treatment from Market
 
Yeah, we often forget about the other things those higher taxes fund (like cheaper education), as healthcare is the primary topic that relative tax rates seem to be brought up in. IIRC, Canada's cost to go to college is quite a bit lower than what it is in the U.S.

Yeah, I think this is a bit cheaper-


vs



From 2012 Here's What College Education Costs Students Around The World - Business Insider


To be fair you would have to include the "*" (appx. $7000 for public education; Affordability 26%). When you do that it appears there is little difference between the two. The US tax dollars spent for defense over most other countries, I believe to be a factor, and that defense does support other countries as well as US.
 
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Nope. I was right. The Congressional Budget Office support my numbers. 24 million Americans will not have insurance because they simply cannot afford it. The CBO study proves you are wrong. I don't know why you are even discussing car insurance. The rate of inflation in medical insurance and rising cost of healthcare is very different from auto insurance. Sure, I can easily find a cheaper auto insurance - everyone knows that.

CBO report: 24 million fewer insured by 2026 under GOP health care bill - CNNPolitics.com

Wrong again. First, I was explaining how revenue-neutral rule changes are filed and approved with state insurance departments using actuarially sound principles. It makes no difference which line of insurance it is. The actuarially sound principle of revenue-neutrality remains. In an earlier post, I explained how a change from 3:1 to 5:1 for age rating is done on a revenue-neutral basis and how that can reduce rates for younger people while raising rates for older people. Why you can sit there and tell me that what I did in my 23 years working in the insurance industry was false or wrong or whatever is simply baffling, if not arrogant. I was THERE, making those filings with state insurance departments, and seeing the approval letters in response. YOU were not there.

And here is a little gem from the CBO report which is consistent with my revenue-neutral offsets explanation.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52486

"Although average premiums would increase prior to 2020 and decrease starting in 2020, CBO and JCT estimate that changes in premiums relative to those under current law would differ significantly for people of different ages because of a change in age-rating rules. Under the legislation, insurers would be allowed to generally charge five times more for older enrollees than younger ones rather than three times more as under current law, substantially reducing premiums for young adults and substantially raising premiums for older people."

In my example, I chose a 50-50 mix of people just to make the algebra easier to demonstrate. To preserve revenue-neutrality, the rates in my example rose 11% for older people while dropping 33% for younger people. I was refuting your claim that rates would only rise for one group while being unchanged for the other.

While auto insurance is not a perfect comparison to health insurance, remember that a good part of auto insurance covers medical losses from auto accidents. During the 1990s, when HMOs became more widely used, the auto insurance coverages which included medical losses (No-fault, Liability, Medical Payments, Uninsured Motorists) saw declines in their rates. In the many rate filings I oversaw during my long career, there were some increases, some decreases, and some mixes of increases and decreases based on loss experience.
 
There aren't any private universities in Canada. But if you compare a top tier Canadian school like University of Waterloo (tuition = 12-14k for engineering/CS) it's very similar to say UC Berkeley (tuition = 14k).

Of course the exchange rate fluctuates quite a bit and right now the CAD is down relative to US. But it wasn't that long ago they were at par.

Note: waterloo has differential pricing based on major. If you go into arts your tuition could be as little as 6k per year. Not sure if this type of pricing is canada wide or just at UoW.
 
To be fair you would have to include the "*" (appx. $7000 for public education; Affordability 26%). When you do that it appears there is little difference between the two. The US tax dollars spent for defense over most other countries, I believe to be a factor, and that defense does support other countries as well as US.

I'd say that ~18% higher costs/income is a reasonably significant difference myself, but that's a matter of opinion. I completely agree that our defense spending is much higher relative to others as well. Though I think we're getting off topic, I'll still mention that many countries spend more on other areas (as a % of GDP) than we do, including infrastructure spending (where many OECD countries spend 2-3 times what we do as a % of GDP). There are a lot of variables, and not all countries have the same concerns/priorities on what to spend money on obviously.
 
I'd say that ~18% higher costs/income is a reasonably significant difference myself, but that's a matter of opinion. I completely agree that our defense spending is much higher relative to others as well. Though I think we're getting off topic, I'll still mention that many countries spend more on other areas (as a % of GDP) than we do, including infrastructure spending (where many OECD countries spend 2-3 times what we do as a % of GDP). There are a lot of variables, and not all countries have the same concerns/priorities on what to spend money on obviously.

I was comparing 22% affordability to 26% affordability.
 
Nope. I was right. The Congressional Budget Office support my numbers. 24 million Americans will not have insurance because they simply cannot afford it. The CBO study proves you are wrong. I don't know why you are even discussing car insurance. The rate of inflation in medical insurance and rising cost of healthcare is very different from auto insurance. Sure, I can easily find a cheaper auto insurance - everyone knows that.

CBO report: 24 million fewer insured by 2026 under GOP health care bill - CNNPolitics.com
The tax guy, Norquyst was on TV and he said CBO was guessing on the number. Mere postulating about the 24 million of people who will lose coverage. But the key thing about the CBO scoring is no tax increase, the bonus is that it's saving money.
 
The tax guy, Norquyst was on TV and he said CBO was guessing on the number. Mere postulating about the 24 million of people who will lose coverage. But the key thing about the CBO scoring is no tax increase, the bonus is that it's saving money.

Saving money is easy. Just eliminate Medicaid altogether and they will save even more money.

How about making healthcare more affordable for *more* people while saving money?
 
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Why do Canadians come across the border? because they do nt want to wait to get treated

This is completely bogus. Please show the real facts, not anecdotal ones.

The reason Canadians come across the border for healthcare is because the Canadian System sends them there (Fully Paid for) so they can get prompt treatment if there is a wait for the same service in Canada.

How it is spun is a different issue.

How do I know? I am Canadian and have had treatment in both countries and the service is basically the same, while there can be a wait for NON ESSENTIAL treatment. YOU still have the choice to pay extra for it. However you will NOT go bankrupt doing it.

Personal Experience completely outweighs anecdotal information.
 
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Saving money is easy. Just eliminate Medicaid altogether and they will save even more money.

How about making healthcare more affordable for *more* people while saving money?

Do you want healthcare more affordable or health insurance? It's my belief that forcing more people to buy insurance does nothing to lower the cost of healthcare. If anything, it gives healthcare provides less incentives to lower costs.
 
The tax guy, Norquyst was on TV and he said CBO was guessing on the number. Mere postulating about the 24 million of people who will lose coverage...........
The CBO only had a short time to crunch the numbers, the authors of the bill, however, have had 8 years to crunch the numbers. I'd love to see those calculations.
 
It's my belief that forcing more people to buy insurance does nothing to lower the cost of healthcare. If anything, it gives healthcare provides less incentives to lower costs.


How did you arrive at that belief?
 
The CBO only had a short time to crunch the numbers, the authors of the bill, however, have had 8 years to crunch the numbers. I'd love to see those calculations.

We've also had 8 years to see that the current plan is unsustainable. Buck up, change is happening.
 
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