Otar: Unveiling the Retirement Myth

[cardude]

Wow. What a jerk. I feel like emailing him some stupid questions just to piss him off now.............

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Makes me feel like returning the "book" to him and demanding my money back. What an arrogant reply. I will never understand how or why some people would choose to treat others that way.

... but the book is one of the best I've read on the topic. Even I can follow the algebra .
.

 

[ERD50]

... Hire someone else to handle your sales, or go back to engineering.

Even from the "engineering viewpoint", if one customer had problems with the transaction, it is likely that others may be experiencing problems, and they may not have taken the time to report the problem. I'd bet that some Probability and Statistics could be (and has been) applied to the situation of "reported problems" versus "total actual problems"

He should be thanking you for the feedback, not claiming you are "wasting his time".


Hmmm, I was gonna buy the book, not so motivated now. Responses like his are what fuel some "rationalizations" among the "pirates". Looks like it might be easier to steal it than to buy it (though I would never condone such action).

-ERD50

 

[quietman]

Software does not always work as designed or intended. Anyone involved in any kind of public facing software, website, payment system or accounting should know that and be prepared to deal with it. With an ebook the incremental cost per copy is as close to zero as practical, so the obvious customer service response should be "Sorry you had trouble. Here's the copy you tried to order." Then the situation can be investigated or ignored as an isolated incident until other reports confirm it. Customer gets some satisfaction. Minimal time is "wasted" if problem really is difficult to track down.

I for one was so interested in this book because of the positive responses from others who seem to have a high opinion of Mr Otar and his analytic abilities. After learning about this maybe I am not so accepting. All systems (software is just an example) can and do occasionally behave unexpectedly. I assume this includes financial systems, monetary systems and even my own retirement plans. A rigorous analysis which makes no provision for, or even acknowledges the possibility of, unexpected events may still be useful, but I will view it skeptically.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Bosco, his response to you was sooooo wrong in so many ways.

Even if some people were just too dumb (as Barbie said: "Math is hard!") to understand his book, maybe they were ordering it for someone else.

Maybe lots of people have tried to order it and can't get through the broken link and just don't care enough to pursue it.

Maybe he used "broken links" in reaching his conclusions in the book.

Perhaps he is lurking and reading this thread and can see what his poorly worded response to you has wrought in the previously positive take on his work.

 

[Nords]

When I run some numbers through Otar's calculator it only allows a 2.6% SWR, where Firecalc allows 3.1% for a 50/50 portfolio for 50 years.
Wonder what the difference is?

I haven't run the calculator yet, but most of his book assumes what we Americans would think of as staggeringly high expense ratios of 2%. I wonder if that's the difference.

Bosco, his response to you was sooooo wrong in so many ways.
Perhaps he is lurking and reading this thread and can see what his poorly worded response to you has wrought in the previously positive take on his work.

Perhaps we've only seen one side of the story...

Anyone else heard from Otar or had problems with PayPal? I'm off to the Bogleheads to read their thread.

 

[bosco]

Well, I prefaced both my earlier communications with an apology to take up his time over $3.99, but I really needed to find out how far the transaction(s) had proceeded before I attempted to take any action.

The first time I ordered the book, I used a Canadian credit card and my Canadian address (since he's Canadian, I figured it would be simpler). Paypal put a temp. authorization of $1.09 on that account (I assume $1.00 US with exchange).

The second time, I thought it would be simpler to try a US card and US address, since Paypal seemed intent on a US transaction. Different error message, but same result--$1.00 temp auth.

I honestly thought this was info he needed, and didn't know how proceed without contacting him anyway. Paypal has no phone number or email listed, and my only other recourse was to cancel the charge through the credit card company. But I can't do that until it is permanently posted.

So I thought he could let me know what he knew, if anything, about the transactions since I'd need that info to dispute any charges anyway. Wow--I was flabbergasted at his last response.

 

[bosco]

In the first response he sent back to me, part of what he said was

"So, I have no clue what you paid to whom for what. In either case, if you were to pay Retirementoptimizer, i.e. if you had pushed one of the buttons on my website, the amount would not be $1.09 in any case."

Only problem was (as I assured him), I DID push the button on his website (sheesh!!).

So my first theory was that somehow, because at the present time, my IP was from a US domain, Paypal wanted to charge US funds (jeez, sometimes living in 2 countries can be complicated).

That's why I thought I'd try a US card, but that didn't work any better.

So looking back, even the initial response from him after the first problem sort of had the implication that I was an idiot. I just didn't read it that way because I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and I do understand that for $3.99 he doesn't want to spend a lot of time. But like I said in my last email, maybe he should hire someone.

 

[Dawg52]

Wow Bosco. That was an unbelievable response you got. Thanks for posting.

 

[Moemg]

I

Perhaps we've only seen one side of the story...

Anyone else heard from Otar or had problems with PayPal? I'm off to the Bogleheads to read their thread.

I had a problem . I started the download and then my computer just shut down ( We had been having signal problems ) . I rebooted it and the download was lost in space so I emailed him ,explained the problem and asked for another link . He sent it pretty quickly with no message only the new link which I used and it downloaded without a problem .

 

[Nords]

... perhaps it is better that you borrow the book from the local library when it becomes available, before you waste more of your time and money, and mine too.

Sounds like Otar is implying that he's happy to let people share their copies with others, especially after he ends up in print.

 

[clifp]

While I can't excuse his arrogant response, I think your problem is unusual. I used PayPal to purchase the book last night. The whole process took a couple of minutes, and then a few more minutes to download, no more difficult than ordering from Amazon.

I have some sympathy for his not so subtle brush off. Their are companies, ING direct comes to mind, that routinely tell customers who take up to much customer service to go elsewhere. Of course with internet this can be a dangerous strategy as Bosco is clearly demonstrating.

 

[Bikerdude]

Some 'engineering' types have poor people skills.

 

[Meadbh]

I had no problem downloading this last week but I know it is getting very heavy traffic. Perhaps the technical glitches are causing a big headache for Otar. It doesn't excuse his rudeness, but it illustrates why people who get annoyed easily need to delegate their marketing!

 

[bosco]

I looked around a bit on the Boglehead site. He seems to have been helpful when a download for which he has received payment has a glitch. In my case, it was the receipt of payment that seems to have been the problem.

He almost implies that I never clicked the payment button on his website. Oh well....life goes on. I do appreciate the sympathy. I'm still curious about the book, but not enough to deal with that again.

I've not had problems with Amazon, or other online providers, and do all my banking and bill payment online, so not sure what the PayPal issue is. My connection is a bit slow here (cellular modem), and Paypal's seemed so as well. So maybe it was a timing out issue. They obviously received my info, or they wouldn't have been able to post the temp. authorizations.

 

[clifp]

Bosco, here is the silver lining beside saving yourself 3.95, you also a great deal of anxiety.

Ok I am about 100 pages into the book. I've started to wonder which flavor of cat food will taste best when my portfolio is depleted in 15 years as I realize that as 1999 retiree I hit the jackpot since my sequence of returns (i.e. really bad bear market) is one of the worst in history. Switching to a more conservative AA won't help because the median depletion rate for all AA is the same.

Well somebody please tell me that this book has a happy ending. Death panels are looking better and better. I am tempted to go look for a J*b or w*rk of course they don't really exist in today's economy. Any reporter wanting to do a multimillionaire feeling destitute story, I am your man.

 

[michelle]

I don't want to necessarily defend Mr. Otar's response, but I wonder if the interaction could be somewhat explained by culture. I have spent substantial time in each country, and I enjoy visiting USA for the exemplary customer service anywhere I choose to spend a nickel. It's just not the same in Canada, IMO. We are more European, in a sense, where the customer may not always be right, and patience with retailers is required. Many Canadian customers will just abandon their efforts if they can't get anywhere with a retailer knowing that complaining may not do much. Lodging formal complaints and letters can be entirely ineffectual at times, whereas I know in America, a verbal or letter of complaint is taken very seriously even if it is baseless (not saying that your issues with Otar's service are baseless, Bosco).

More obvious is that Otar is trying to run this by himself from his basement. He likely does not have retail experience, and as an engineer by training, likely has little patience for certain minutae in life like malfunctioning software applications.

That being said, and it might be a bit of a stretch in view of the level of arrogance in the final response, but is it possible that the expectations by the consumer (Bosco) to have the problem in purchasing the book solved by the retailer (Otar) be partly explained by subtle cultural differences between our two countries?

michelle (who is trying to give this gentleman some benefit of doubt, but admits it is a rather ambitious endeavour )

 

[target2019]

I've not had problems with Amazon, or other online providers, and do all my banking and bill payment online, so not sure what the PayPal issue is. My connection is a bit slow here (cellular modem), and Paypal's seemed so as well. So maybe it was a timing out issue. They obviously received my info, or they wouldn't have been able to post the temp. authorizations.

Paypal is less than perfect, and I do think your dial-up had something to do with the problem. Still, no excuses are acceptable. I am wondering how your account got charged the wrong amount? That is something that should not happen, but of course computers and programmers and users have all been known to make mistakes.
FYI, I am pretty good at "testing" systems, and seem to find many flaws in online systems, without trying.
Best wishes.

 

[target2019]

I am tempted to go look for a J*b or w*rk of course they don't really exist in today's economy. Any reporter wanting to do a multimillionaire feeling destitute story, I am your man.

Why not write a book? It seems to work for many!

 

[target2019]

More obvious is that Otar is trying to run this by himself from his basement. He likely does not have retail experience, and as an engineer by training, likely has little patience for certain minutae in life like malfunctioning software applications.

That being said, and it might be a bit of a stretch in view of the level of arrogance in the final response, but is it possible that the expectations by the consumer (Bosco) to have the problem in purchasing the book solved by the retailer (Otar) be partly explained by subtle cultural differences between our two countries?

I think you've expressed things well. I'd imagine that he did not anticipate the deluge of response, and probably regrets giving the PDF away, receiving personal emails on the subject, payment problems, etc.
However, as an engineer he would be wise to expect less than 100% performance, and so would want to insulate himself from the transactions and help desk functions.
Let's not forget that the author is an FP, and actively sells the service, and now a book. So he is no stranger to customer service problems, how to handle clients, etc.
BTW, there are many free articles on his website, so let's give him credit for all of that.

 

[W2R]

I looked around a bit on the Boglehead site. He seems to have been helpful when a download for which he has received payment has a glitch. In my case, it was the receipt of payment that seems to have been the problem.

He almost implies that I never clicked the payment button on his website. Oh well....life goes on. I do appreciate the sympathy. I'm still curious about the book, but not enough to deal with that again.

I've not had problems with Amazon, or other online providers, and do all my banking and bill payment online, so not sure what the PayPal issue is. My connection is a bit slow here (cellular modem), and Paypal's seemed so as well. So maybe it was a timing out issue. They obviously received my info, or they wouldn't have been able to post the temp. authorizations.

Bosco, I think you were more than reasonable and that his response was out of line. It lowers my (previously neutral) opinion of him. He is obviously taking on more than he can handle and apparently he didn't have the foresight to realize that handling customer service all by himself might be way over his head. His poor judgment in this regard says nothing good at all about his judgment in general.

I guess I am lucky because I missed the "free" stage, and so I have only seen the one chapter which was still provided for free. I was not impressed. I take it that the rest of the book is much better. If/when I can skim through some of the rest of it at B&N or Amazon, if I like it then I might buy it for full price. But otherwise, no way. Cheap is nice (free is nicer!), but my time is worth something too.

 

[Midpack]

Bosco, here is the silver lining beside saving yourself 3.95, you also a great deal of anxiety.

Ok I am about 100 pages into the book. I've started to wonder which flavor of cat food will taste best when my portfolio is depleted in 15 years as I realize that as 1999 retiree I hit the jackpot since my sequence of returns (i.e. really bad bear market) is one of the worst in history. Switching to a more conservative AA won't help because the median depletion rate for all AA is the same.

Well somebody please tell me that this book has a happy ending. Death panels are looking better and better. I am tempted to go look for a J*b or w*rk of course they don't really exist in today's economy. Any reporter wanting to do a multimillionaire feeling destitute story, I am your man.

An unfortunate customer service experience to be sure, although I have bought & sold using PayPal for many years without a single problem. Wonder if it was a communication/access problem and not PayPal itself.

It is a very worthwhile read IMO, but I'm an Engineer and I want to see supporting data like he provides. It's realistic, and his recommendations are very workable (I provided a link in an earlier post on this thread that is a similar approach --- in 12 pages, might be an insight). He goes to great lengths (maybe too much at times) to examine all the lore re: retirement planning/accumulation/distribution - and attempts to factually evaluate them all. If nothing else, there is no mystery WRT where his conclusions come from, the work is all shown.

He thinks most of the mainstream advice is flawed, and IMO he's right. As most everyone here well knows, there is uncertainty throughout life, it does not end because one retires --- any model that suggests any certainty is not useful. The only workable approach requires probabilities (not certainties) and flexibility during a long distribution period. I have a e:copy of the Otar pdf if anyone wants to see it...

 

[bosco]

I don't want to necessarily defend Mr. Otar's response, but I wonder if the interaction could be somewhat explained by culture. I have spent substantial time in each country, and I enjoy visiting USA for the exemplary customer service anywhere I choose to spend a nickel. It's just not the same in Canada, IMO. We are more European, in a sense, where the customer may not always be right, and patience with retailers is required. Many Canadian customers will just abandon their efforts if they can't get anywhere with a retailer knowing that complaining may not do much. Lodging formal complaints and letters can be entirely ineffectual at times, whereas I know in America, a verbal or letter of complaint is taken very seriously even if it is baseless (not saying that your issues with Otar's service are baseless, Bosco).

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, Michelle. I am Canadian, and used to being treated more politely by Canadian merchants. This is partially why I was so shocked at rude behavior by this man.

Having spent a lot of time in both countries, I will say that this is an atypical experience, in either country. I have never noticed a lower quality of customer service in Canada, with the possible exception of government agencies.

 

[Meadbh]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, Michelle. I am Canadian, and used to being treated more politely by Canadian merchants. This is partially why I was so shocked at rude behavior by this man.

Having spent a lot of time in both countries, I will say that this is an atypical experience, in either country. I have never noticed a lower quality of customer service in Canada, with the possible exception of government agencies.

What bosco said.

 

[quietman]

Wow, I have not done a lot of shopping in Canada and what I did do was as a tourist. I have only the most positive impressions of customer service there. I bought some discontinued items in a department store, and not only did they check in back and where ever else department stores keep things, they called all over the country to other stores to look for additional inventory - then discounted it some more because I would have to wait for it to arrive. Could not have been more helpful or pleasant about everything. Same story at my lodgings and restaurants. Even at the garage where I stopped to look at strange sounds from rental car. Everyone, everywhere was as nice as could be. Folks in Montreal and Quebec were slightly more reserved until I tried the S'il vous plait and merci (the only French I know and immediately switched to English) and then they were nice as could be as well. I've been there maybe a dozen times in different parts of the country and never had a customer service problem, ever. I guess maybe people have different experiences. If the Canadians are supposed to be more reserved and aloof about customer service I never saw it. My experience was quite the opposite.