Ouch! Tick-tock...

[ziggy29]

...back goes the FIRE clock one minute as I've crashed through -10% YTD today...

 

[HFWR]

Yep, market taking a big dump today...

 

[TromboneAl]

Look on bright side. Day not over yet.

 

[FIREd]

Ziggy,

Do you care to explain (again probably) how your clock works? I have been curious about it for a while. At any rates, as of last night I was -7.8% YTD. Net worth has now been pretty much flat for 1 year.

 

[retire@40]

...back goes the FIRE clock one minute as I've crashed through -10% YTD today...

Can you do me a favor and short the market?

That should take care of the problem.

Thanks!

 

[ziggy29]

Ziggy,

Do you care to explain (again probably) how your clock works? I have been curious about it for a while. At any rates, as of last night I was -7.8% YTD. Net worth has now been pretty much flat for 1 year.

It's a combination of my age and the performance of my retirement portfolio.

It was based on the assumption of retiring in 2017 (10 years from inception) with an 8% return on the portfolio. That is, 10 years of 8% returns would push me from 11:38 (where it started) to 12:00 (the goal). I push it forward and backward based on gains/losses of the portfolio as well as over time. Lately it's been going straight back...

 

[FIREd]

It's a combination of my age and the performance of my retirement portfolio.

It was based on the assumption of retiring in 2017 (10 years from inception) with an 8% return on the portfolio. That is, 10 years of 8% returns would push me from 11:38 (where it started) to 12:00 (the goal). I push it forward and backward based on gains/losses of the portfolio as well as over time. Lately it's been going straight back...

Thanks. That's an interesting and (for the most part) fun approach!

 

[calmloki]

FTSE all world ex-US fund is down almost 20% for us since January of this year. I'm thinking that means it would have to come back up 25% to get to where we started. Strongly thinking of selling today and buying back in a month. Don't really think the fund is going to bounce up 25% in a month. Lock in a little tax loss and buy back at a cheaper point. Would you consider the same on way down funds? Reasons not to do so? All our funds are in taxable accounts

 

[FinanceDude]

FTSE all world ex-US fund is down almost 20% for us since January of this year. I'm thinking that means it would have to come back up 25% to get to where we started. Strongly thinking of selling today and buying back in a month. Don't really think the fund is going to bounce up 25% in a month. Lock in a little tax loss and buy back at a cheaper point. Would you consider the same on way down funds? Reasons not to do so? All our funds are in taxable accounts

"Fortunes are made by selling too soon".........

 

[FIREd]

FTSE all world ex-US fund is down almost 20% for us since January of this year. I'm thinking that means it would have to come back up 25% to get to where we started. Strongly thinking of selling today and buying back in a month. Don't really think the fund is going to bounce up 25% in a month. Lock in a little tax loss and buy back at a cheaper point. Would you consider the same on way down funds? Reasons not to do so? All our funds are in taxable accounts

I was thinking about the possibility of selling Vanguard developed markets index (VDMIX) and harvest the loss (-19% YTD) before buying back later. With the dollar bouncing back and Europe slowing down, I would think there is little risk in taking a short break. But I don't know... With Vanguard's trading policies and the IRS sale's wash rule, don't you have to wait 3 months before you can buy back the same fund?

 

[TromboneAl]

I still don't get the clock, sorry. How did you get 11:36 PM? Is it just a gut feeling or does 12 AM correspond to when you were born or started working?

 

[ziggy29]

I still don't get the clock, sorry. How did you get 11:36 PM? Is it just a gut feeling or does 12 AM correspond to when you were born or started working?

It's a take-off on the old "Doomsday clock" which a group would move forward or back depending on how close they thought we were to nuclear war with the Soviet Union. The closer they set it to midnight, the closer we were to armageddon.

 

[calmloki]

I was thinking about the possibility of selling Vanguard developed markets index (VDMIX) and harvest the loss (-19% YTD) before buying back later. With the dollar bouncing back and Europe slowing down, I would think there is little risk in taking a short break. But I don't know... With Vanguard's trading policies and the IRS sale's wash rule, don't you have to wait 3 months before you can buy back the same fund?

I do not know - had thought the IRS wash sale rule was one month for same fund - didn't even think about the Vanguard trading policy issue - we've held since 1/8/08 so we're past the 2 month fee for trading issue - there's a problem buying back in to the same fund w/ Vanguard?

 

[crazy connie]

I was thinking about the possibility of selling Vanguard developed markets index (VDMIX) and harvest the loss (-19% YTD) before buying back later. With the dollar bouncing back and Europe slowing down, I would think there is little risk in taking a short break. But I don't know... With Vanguard's trading policies and the IRS sale's wash rule, don't you have to wait 3 months before you can buy back the same fund?

IRS Wash Sale rule only applies to after tax accounts.

"In general you have a wash sale if you sell stock at a loss, and buy substantially identical securities within 30 days before or after the sale."

Quoted from The Fairmark Forum.

 

[ziggy29]

IRS Wash Sale rule only applies to after tax accounts.

That is assumed to be the case, though, when one is considering "tax loss harvesting," which is a concept applicable only to taxable accounts.

I wonder if we'll see another dip in the market in December. There would seem to be the potential for a lot of tax loss harvesting this year.

 

[calmloki]

IRS Wash Sale rule only applies to after tax accounts.

"In general you have a wash sale if you sell stock at a loss, and buy substantially identical securities within 30 days before or after the sale."

Quoted from The Fairmark Forum.

Just where i was! Wash Sales 101

Nice lady at Vanguard indicated that they would have no problem with us selling and buying back in after 30 days. Also suggested that while she didn't see any wash sale issues with our situation that we might want to consult our tax advisor. CYA

 

[FIREd]

IRS Wash Sale rule only applies to after tax accounts.

You are correct and calmloki and I are both talking about taxable accounts as well.

I do not know - had thought the IRS wash sale rule was one month for same fund - didn't even think about the Vanguard trading policy issue - we've held since 1/8/08 so we're past the 2 month fee for trading issue - there's a problem buying back in to the same fund w/ Vanguard?

Ok so the wash rule is 30 days. But last time I checked Vanguard did not allow me to buy back into a fund if I had sold that fund in the past 3 months. I believe it is to prevent frequent trading that could adversely affect long term investors. I will try and look for a link on their website.

 

[calmloki]

.... But last time I checked Vanguard did not allow me to buy back into a fund if I had sold that fund in the past 3 months. I believe it is to prevent frequent trading that could adversely affect long term investors. I will try and look for a link on their website.

Differs from what i was just told by a V. phone rep - but written rule is the boss - Very interested if you find anything!

 

[FIREd]

Actually according to this, it's not 3 months, it's 60 days, my bad:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/Va...5_ALL_fees_ALL.html&Season2=Summer&Year2=2005

As far as I know this policy is still in effect.

Nice lady at Vanguard indicated that they would have no problem with us selling and buying back in after 30 days. Also suggested that while she didn't see any wash sale issues with our situation that we might want to consult our tax advisor. CYA

Then you must be a very good customer!

 

[calmloki]

Actually according to this, it's not 3 months, it's 60 days, my bad:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/Va...5_ALL_fees_ALL.html&Season2=Summer&Year2=2005

As far as I know this policy is still in effect.



Then you must be a very good customer!

Oy - that looks pretty cut and dried. Thought at first it might be like the 30 days before,30 days after w/ no transactions wash sale rule. Might still give it a shot - try and buy back in after 30 days, if prevented hold my breath and hope and buy back in 60. That would still be before the euphoric market surge i have scheduled for early November.
Really doubt i was spoken to on the very good customer basis. I mean, i have a nice voice and i'm polite and a heck of a nice guy, but VG doesn't have much of our money. Matter of fact, we don't have very much of our money either!

 

[DblDoc]

I'm in the middle of boucing back and forth with VEU vs VEA + VWO as well as DLS vs GWX. The Vanguard rules for MF's is one of the reasons I went with the ETF's. 2008 looks to be a VERY good year for TLH.

DD

 

[FIREd]

Oy - that looks pretty cut and dried. Thought at first it might be like the 30 days before,30 days after w/ no transactions wash sale rule. Might still give it a shot - try and buy back in after 30 days, if prevented hold my breath and hope and buy back in 60. That would still be before the euphoric market surge i have scheduled for early November.
Really doubt i was spoken to on the very good customer basis. I mean, i have a nice voice and i'm polite and a heck of a nice guy, but VG doesn't have much of our money. Matter of fact, we don't have very much of our money either!

For sure the website won't let you buy back before the 60 day period ends (I know from experience). So if you want to buy back after only 30 days, you may want to try your luck on the phone with a live representative!

 

[crazy connie]

Dang I love it when I post the right info in the wrong thread!!! Sorry

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

FTSE all world ex-US fund is down almost 20% for us since January of this year. I'm thinking that means it would have to come back up 25% to get to where we started. Strongly thinking of selling today and buying back in a month. Don't really think the fund is going to bounce up 25% in a month. Lock in a little tax loss and buy back at a cheaper point. Would you consider the same on way down funds? Reasons not to do so? All our funds are in taxable accounts

So, how would you feel if it was up 7% or 10% in a month? How about swapping into something similar but not equivalent (from a tax perspective)?

 

[calmloki]

So, how would you feel if it was up 7% or 10% in a month? How about swapping into something similar but not equivalent (from a tax perspective)?

Amused? If i buy back in when it's gone up 10% i'll still have saved $1000 in taxes 9 months from now, the same number of shares will cost $1600 more than I sold them for, and any movement the stock makes up from there will be profitable rather than it having to go up another $2400 to get into profit territory. Talking about a $20k starting investment back in January. I've been pretty patient and watched it ratchet down over the last 8 months. Good idea on the similiar fund purchase swap - i'm guessing swapping into the ETF is not gonna pass IRS muster though... Hmm.
The good thing is that i'm not playing with big numbers yet - liable to spend more on fuse box to breaker panel conversion and swapping in tankless gas water heaters over the next couple weeks than we started with in VFWIX. Now that's exciting!