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Parents in mid 80s and no will/trust. What to do?
Old 01-09-2022, 09:21 PM   #1
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Parents in mid 80s and no will/trust. What to do?

Hello.. This is my 1st post! I'm 54 and my parents are mid 80's and live alone. Father has say level 3 dementia out of 5 and just released from the hospital for blood clots in lungs. He's doing fine but didn't understand why he was there fully. Mom is a lot better and watches after him, for now. She has no health problems besides some arthritis and her memory is still good. BUT can't make big decisions on a will/trust. (or always wanted to remodel there house built in the 70's .haha) She's always had problems though with big life decisions , because my father did everything dealing with there finances, house, etc. She was a homemaker and raised my brother and I. They have been big savers all there lives but tough getting them to spend some and enjoy it, at this point. Though they lived well. They have a couple million saved in the house, bonds, stocks, no debts, and they live in Florida. How can I convince her its time to get a will/ trust set up? She keeps dragging her feet, though is open to it, just overwhelmed about it. Its just my brother and I including in the will/ trust (maybe 5% going to a niece of hers and brother)and we have no family problems or disputes among us. I assume if my father passes, everything will automatically go to my mother, without problems,as her name is also on everything ? But regardless, I assume there are tax implications , etc regarding a will/trust that would be costly if not dealt with. Any advice? Thank you!
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Old 01-09-2022, 09:43 PM   #2
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Welcome to the forum.

If they don't make a will, then there are default rules that will apply. These rules vary by state. They're generally called laws of intestacy, which is just a fancy term for someone who dies without a will.

What you might do is look up what those default rules are in Florida and share them with your parents. If they're fine with those rules and don't have any minor children and don't have any estate tax issues, then they may not need a will.

If they do want something different, they'll need to write a will. You could help by asking your Mom what impediments are there and then work to remove them.
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Old 01-09-2022, 10:30 PM   #3
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For all financial accounts, add beneficiary designations... for you mother's accounts, your dad would be primary beneficiary and you and your brother would be 50/50 secondary beneficiaries... and for your dad's accounts your mom would be primary beneficiary and you and your brother would be 50/50 secondary beneficiaries. For their joint accounts, you and your brother would be 50/50 primary beneficiaries. Beneficiary designations should be able to cover most everything other than the house.

For the house, it looks like Florida allows Lady Bird deeds which would operate similarly.

So you can cover off a lot without a will but it would be good to have a will.

Not sure what you mean by tax implications but there are generally no tax implications other than for really large estates.

"... the estate and gift tax exemption will be $12.06 million per individual for 2022 gifts and deaths, up from $11.7 million in 2021. This increase means that a married couple can shield a total of $24.12 million without having to pay any federal estate or gift tax."
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Old 01-10-2022, 10:55 AM   #4
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After my mom passed, I arranged for a will to be prepared for my dad (then 85). I called the lawyer, gave him all the particulars (basically 50/50 split between brother and I) and even drove my dad down to the lawyers office to sign. We did a POA, Will, healthcare directive. I made it so easy for my dad that he just needed to sign the papers. If I hadn't gone through the effort, he never would have been able (or motivated) to do so.

Turns out, the will was not needed. I made sure that we were beneficiaries on everything - including the house. All accounts were split and house sold within a month of his passing.
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Old 01-10-2022, 11:17 AM   #5
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Thanks everyone for the replies. I guess it's easier than I thought with no oustanding debts to anyone and no family disputes between my brother and I , as of yet! Also read were if you have a will and executor, one would have to pay him/her $50k on a 2 million estate , $100k on a 4 million estate! Thats seems crazy. My mother 85 yr old being frugal ( still clipping coupons for the grocery store ), thought my brother and I could be co -executors.. Any thoughts on that? Thanks again
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Old 01-10-2022, 11:19 AM   #6
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What pb4uski said!



"She's always had problems though with big life decisions , because my father did everything dealing with there finances, house, etc." Based off of this, why not "be" your dad wrt this? Get everything set up, go over it with her and make any adjustments, and all she'll have to do is sign. She'll probably continue to procrastinate and there may be a bit of avoidance too. Not the funnest thing to think about.
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Old 01-10-2022, 11:23 AM   #7
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Thanks everyone for the replies. I guess it's easier than I thought with no oustanding debts to anyone and no family disputes between my brother and I , as of yet! Also read were if you have a will and executor, one would have to pay him/her $50k on a 2 million estate , $100k on a 4 million estate! Thats seems crazy. My mother 85 yr old being frugal ( still clipping coupons for the grocery store ), thought my brother and I could be co -executors.. Any thoughts on that? Thanks again
Normally, in simple cases where one (or both) of the kids are Executors they just don't get paid for the role.
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Old 01-10-2022, 11:32 AM   #8
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Thats possible but my mother, brother and I agree it would be better to hire a family friend attorney that would charge us $2k to set up the will, living trust ,etc. No mistakes that way and money well spent. She also sees this process as kind of morbid in some way. She is healthy and no signs of dementia at 83 unlike my father , and still going.. driving, shopping, visiting friends, etc
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Old 01-10-2022, 11:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Pablo1 View Post
Thanks everyone for the replies. I guess it's easier than I thought with no oustanding debts to anyone and no family disputes between my brother and I , as of yet! Also read were if you have a will and executor, one would have to pay him/her $50k on a 2 million estate , $100k on a 4 million estate! Thats seems crazy. My mother 85 yr old being frugal ( still clipping coupons for the grocery store ), thought my brother and I could be co -executors.. Any thoughts on that? Thanks again
Probate can be costly in Florida, especially if the court appoints the probate attorney. One thing you might consider is to show your mum the probate fees, then compare that with how much it costs to set up a living trust. The trust will cost $2k-$3k and all assets transferred to the trust are no longer subject to probate.
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Old 01-10-2022, 11:55 AM   #10
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+2 on what pb4uski said.

My FIL was in poor health and no longer capable of handling financial stuff due to a stroke. I sat down at the PC with my MIL and we went through all the beneficiary designations for all of their financial accounts. Most of this could be done quite easily online. We also did a TOD deed for the house. Just had to drive them down to the County Clerk's office to have it recorded.

When FIL passed a few years later, everything transferred seamlessly to my MIL. FIL had a Will, but it never came into play for anything.

Fast-forward a few years, and MIL is now 87 and has moved in with us. Last year, we sold her car, the house, and everything in it except a few things she moved over here. So 100% of her assets are now in financial accounts with DW and my BIL as 50/50 primary beneficiaries. So when she goes, everything will transfer seamlessly to them. No Will. No probate. No costs.

I still recommend having a Will (as a back-up) and related documents like health-care directives and durable POA, especially the latter two.
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Old 01-10-2022, 11:56 AM   #11
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Pablo, do you yourself have a will set up? That may demonstrate to her that it's more matter-of-fact than morbid. You could portray it as sort of a "one and done" thing, that, if not handled, the issue will keep coming up again and again, and she'll have to think about it every time. But if she just gets it over with now, it's out of her hair, and she can be satisfied that "it's all taken care of."
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Old 01-10-2022, 12:01 PM   #12
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I don't know that a trust is needed, if they won't hit estate taxes and there are no special needs beneficiaries or special situations like 2nd marriages with kids from the 1st.

I have all of my investment accounts set up with beneficiaries named or transfer on death. My house too. So what's left for my will to cover is just my cars and household belongings. With one heir in my case, or two for your parents, that should be pretty easy to settle. Probably even without a will, but better with one.

More important is for her to set you and your brother up with POA if both become incapacitated or not competent, as your father probably already is.

I would just go through some basic situations and explain what would happen (or wouldn't happen) if they do not have POA set up or do not have a will. For example, if they are incapacitated and you don't have access to her money, they could lose the house if there's no one to pay real estate taxes. Or she wants 5% to go to a niece and brother? They will get nothing without a will or them named beneficiary. And you can ask if she means to make things costly and a hassle for you to deal with when she is gone because she didn't do any of this. A lot of this is more dealing with personalities, so you would know better what would prompt her to take action. Maybe you can sit with her and write down what she wants to happen, then take her to an estate attorney with that list to legalize it, and then go back and sign the documents they've drawn up. Pretty sure most attorneys have boilerplate forms and they just fill in the details so you don't have to sit through the crafting of every paragraph.
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Old 01-10-2022, 01:04 PM   #13
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... Also read were if you have a will and executor, one would have to pay him/her $50k on a 2 million estate , $100k on a 4 million estate! Thats seems crazy. ...
Maybe it is cazy. SGOTI has never been famous for providing 100% accurate information.

If we assume that an initial consultation and review of your parents' situation might cost $2,500 and the estate is ~$2M, that is around a tenth of one percent. Value? SGOTI is free but cannot be relied on to provide reliable information. A professional review has trivial impact on the estate expenses and may expose significant planning opportunities.

Please, @Pablo1, get some professional help with this, from someone expert in your state laws.

Also, regarding getting your father to the table, are your folks religious? Is there a trusted clergy person who could help with this?

Finally, re family getting along, that can collapse quickly if anyone is taking property instead of cash and appraisal disputes arise. Your attorney can discuss other scenarios and tactics with you.
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Old 01-10-2022, 01:22 PM   #14
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Maybe it is cazy. SGOTI has never been famous for providing 100% accurate information.

If we assume that an initial consultation and review of your parents' situation might cost $2,500 and the estate is ~$2M, that is around a tenth of one percent. Value? SGOTI is free but cannot be relied on to provide reliable information. A professional review has trivial impact on the estate expenses and may expose significant planning opportunities.

Please, @Pablo1, get some professional help with this, from someone expert in your state laws.


Finally, re family getting along, that can collapse quickly if anyone is taking property instead of cash and appraisal disputes arise. Your attorney can discuss other scenarios and tactics with you.
Actually, a court appointed attorney to manage probate will cost Pablo1 $50k for a $2M estate. Florida has very high probate fees when the court takes over. That doesn’t mean he has no other options, and IMO the advice he’s getting in this thread is good.
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Old 01-10-2022, 01:59 PM   #15
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I agree it is good discussion. It is always wise to get professional estate attorney help for *your* state.


As for the question about trust or not. Most revocable living trust have as part of them a financial and medical power of attorney, a pour over will, and healthcare directive. The main advantage of the trust is to avoid probate. The trust executor does not have to take any fee, especially if a family member. Any outside executor will take a fee.


Once a trust is established, you would transfer the house and anything without a beneficiary designation to be owned by the trust. As for taxes, the house will get a stepped up basis when the first of your parents dies, and then again when your second parent dies. So there should not be any, or minimal, taxes due since there is no substantial capital gain. Also when both of your parents have died, the revocable living trust becomes an irrevocable trust; where the executor then begins the settlement and distribution process. Then at some point in the future when the assets are all distributed to heirs, the trust is basically done with its purpose.
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Old 01-11-2022, 02:23 PM   #16
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I was in a somewhat similar situation with my mother approx 10 years ago. Our situation had another layer in that my mother had very few assets other than her house and she needed to go into a nursing home. She also needed expensive meds and at that time medicare did not cover medications. It was clear that she would need to spend down her assets and go on medicaid. She lived in Illinois and I lived in Ohio and she asked for my help.

I found an eldercare attorney in her area and set up an in person meeting with my mother, me and my sister. I wanted my sister to attend so there was total transparency and so she would have input, knowledge and a voice in any decisions that were made.

Coming out of that meeting my mother had a will and my sister had health care power of attorney and I had financial power of attorney. We had a common understanding and agreement that we would sell her house, apply for Medicaid and begin a "Medicaid Spend Down Plan" so when her assets were exhausted the transition to Medicaid would be seamless.

Everything worked out well and if I had to do this over again I would handle it the exact same way.
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Old 01-11-2022, 06:04 PM   #17
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My parents had a will and my father passed first. The real estate passed onto my mother under right of survivorship, and the will didn't require going thru probate.

When my mother passed, we did have to probate the will only because of the house. Otherwise, I was on all of their accounts, etc. and a check signer.

Like was told above, you and/or your brother need to be on their accounts for ease of transfer. I suggest going to an attorney and seeing if he can prepare a will for each of your parents.

For a simple estate, Nolo's Willmaker 2021 prepares a simple that's legal in each state. Willmaker is an option--especially if your parents wish to split the estate 50/50 (you and your brother.) Their tutorials are also excellent reading for anyone too.

If the standing parent cannot live alone any longer, they should be looking to sell their home in a hot market and see if the rest of their business allows them to not probate the estate. An unlimited power of attorney often helps the executor in liquidating assets.
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