Persistence of the American Dream

[marko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by razztazz Pay more. That's how it works...

Doesn't work like that around here. Can't get anyone in a reasonable time frame at any price.

We pay top dollar, pay on time and the checks don't bounce...doesn't get us anything. Painter came over yesterday (after 4 missed appointments) and told us he couldn't start for 4 months; just for a 4 day job to paint a kitchen.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6miths Studies point to the fact that almost all OECD countries have greater economic mobility than the US.

Then we should give immigrants who seek to enter this country illegally copies of those studies and directions to those countries.... problem solved.

[Gumby]

Quote:

Originally Posted by samclem I'm plowing through it, but will likely not read every word (C'mon--she spent 4 1/2 pages on "Acknowledgements," !) So far, there are strong echoes of the themes Thomas Frank brings up in "What's the Matter with Kansas?" In both cases the authors struggle to believe that people can support policies that don't directly benefit them, instead of supporting policies that would take resources from others and transfer them to those being interviewed. In my opinion, this says a lot more about the authors than it says about the subjects of the study. Weiderspan's take on "family capital" is an interesting one, and reflects the very recent understanding that the "immediate" household (parents and children in one dwelling, no extended family) should be the defacto family unit, that support from extended family is properly viewed as unusual, and (I'm guessing she'd say) a more proper role for the state. This view would be quite alien to people living in many other parts of the world, or to the view held by most Americans before WWII. Weiderspan uses the term "localized blame" to describe the situation when poor people see their economic situation as being the result of their own decisions. The use of the term "blame" rather than "responsibility" is telling. From her later recommendations, I believe she would say these people should more properly "blame" the economic system in general--as this would be more rational, would improve their self esteem, and would be the most effective means to prompt political changes that will benefit them. I'm hoping Weiderspan leverages the fulsome research on Locus of Control to explain the ramifications of her findings. People with "internal" locus of control (as Weiderpan's "localized blamers" apparently do) have less anxiety than those with an external locus of control. Anyway, as time permits I'll hack through some more.

Steinbeck is quoted* as saying "socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." But, as your avatar is often quoted* as saying, "denial ain't just a river in Egypt".



*Incorrectly, it seems in both cases.

[imoldernu]

Wondering how many, here on ER, have started their own business... from scratch. Do you know what the success rate is?

https://www.fundera.com/blog/what-pe...usinesses-fail

Much of our discussion here seems to revolve around being smart, making good decisions, and having support, from whatever source.

So, about good decisions... Picking the right career?, the right company?, how much to save? working long hours? avoiding unnecessary expenses? planning for a family (or not)? studying investment economics?

Support? Born into wealth? inherited? Or... the ego thing? I did it myself?

Back to the top... maybe an overview of the American Dream. Starting your own business and succeeding. How about courage? and Luck (whatever that means to you).

Then there's the "Smart" thing... Is it IQ? or being in the right place at the right time?... or maybe somebody else who provided guidance and support?

Do we make it on our own, or is success based on having a firm footing to begin with? Is the American way based on equal opportunity, or hierarchical continuity?

Tough questions. Vanity tells me I did it myself. That my contribution to the American Way was the volunteerism and give back through family provisions that helped others to be a part of the "equality" that our country professes.

Maybe, if success is measured by money and the taxes I paid to our government, then I am a failure.

.................................................. .................................................. ..
So... Time to pick sides... Guess I must lean toward a modified communism, not for the government or government ownership, but a basic level of equality and education for everyone... with an opportunity for achievers to advance without debt. An equal start and support for those who can give back. My vision of the American Dream.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by imoldernu ... So, about good decisions... Picking the right career?, the right company?, how much to save? working long hours? ...

Add to that, the ability to adapt. And to keep your eyes open for opportunities to adapt. Like if you picked the wrong career, or the wrong company - do you just stick it out, or do you actively seek out positive alternatives. Or jut better opportunities, even if the present ones are OK (rather than actually 'wrong').

-ERD50

[Megg1141]

Quote:

Originally Posted by imoldernu Wondering how many, here on ER, have started their own business... from scratch. Do you know what the success rate is?

After working in construction for 28 yrs, I was a casualty of the 2008 crash. Having to reinvent myself I started a commercial cleaning business from zero. Going door to door handing out cards, I was cleaning at night while soliciting new business during the day. I was lucky to have my son to help with the cleaning and I guaranteed him a paycheck while I built the business and was payed last. Three years into it my wife quit her job and came on board. We expanded with two new vans and have our current three crews working. Everyone told us starting a business in that environment was crazy and was not going to last. I felt if we succeeded in that environment it would only get easier as things got better. We are just past our tenth year and we doing just fine. If a high school "C" student can start a business at the age of 50, in the worst economic environment of the last 50 yrs, I believe the American dream is doing just fine.

[Running_Man]

Bad spending decisions are the overwhelming cause of almost all problems. If a service station attendant and janitor can save 8 million do not claim the poor are exploited. This is not to say people do not need help, nor that they get into desperate situations that appear unmanageable. i believe it is an obligation of the individual to help other people, but establishing rules for everyone on how to implement help is counter productive.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.eb715e839882


I hope that the economic system is not chosen that leads to an easy path for people to get through life. People need a guiding principle of character, not a guiding principle of ease, I think Al Pacino sums up my thoughts on what society choses for a future:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25A9muoOgig

[Eagle43]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt34 I'd almost certainly be dead by now, having lived a life that was "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short". But I got lucky. I was born in the U.S., in one of the wealthiest counties in the country (although as the son of an electrician and a secretary we were ourselves not wealthy) but that gave me access to one of the better public school systems in the country. I also had housing, regular meals, medical care, and all the other bennies that came with 1950's and '60's suburbia. I think there is little question that luck plays a role. The bigger issue of course is what one does with that luck.

Bingo. I, too, am lucky. I believe being born in the U.S.A is winning the lottery. You could not have a better chance to pursue happiness and wealth than here. Apologies to those who think otherwise, but it is my belief.

[marko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumby Steinbeck is quoted* as saying "socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." .

A great quote!! But I wonder if that mindset remains true today. A lot has changed since Steinbecks day.

[pj.mask]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Running_Man Being allowed to be a graduate student in the PHD program for 11 years to complete your "dissertation" which is a collection of family notes of 40 people with an average family income of $115,000 to make a statement on a need for change in the United States economic system. That someone with so little ability to finish a project, and incidental in her study only 6 out of the 40 even agreed with her conclusion that the economic system is unjust to most people, and despite most people not agreeing with the hard-learned - 16 years of education to print this dissertation on fixing the US economy - she offers the outline for this work to begin - basically political advocacy of social workers to change the view of Americans to conform to the Social Workers world view how an economy should be based.

You seem really offended by her academic pursuits. Do you have any closely know anyone (including yourself) who has a PhD? It is something to be quite proud of.

I have half the credits towards a masters but never completed because no financial incentive but work closely with several highly educated people and from my experiences with them would not look down on someone who has outstanding academic achievements.

[Fedup]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eagle43 Bingo. I, too, am lucky. I believe being born in the U.S.A is winning the lottery. You could not have a better chance to pursue happiness and wealth than here. Apologies to those who think otherwise, but it is my belief.

I hear this often but I think the homeless in SF would disagree with you.

[Eagle43]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fedup I hear this often but I think the homeless in SF would disagree with you.

Well choice is another element. You can win the lottery, and squander it. Or you could invest it and double or triple it. Choice does make a difference.

[pj.mask]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HtownRose So do we want to scrap a system that rewards hard work & smart choices and replace it with a system that rewards laziness & dumb choices? Some would say some of our programs already do this, with predictable results.

I think this is a fundamental disagreement here. Some people see funneling 400million to your kids to avoid estate tax as “hard work” and others see it as a ‘system that allows the rich to break the rules and increase their wealth while the poor don’t have options’ - similar to successful doctors Incorporating themselves offshore so they can avoid taxes; know a few who do this. Unfortunately I, as a salaried employee don’t really have that option and end up paying 20% of my income in taxes.

Sure, I could ‘pull myself up by my bootstraps, start my own business, and incorporate overseas as well to avoid taxes’ but I don’t believe the cost of the legal services would outweigh the savings for my income. So instead, I subsidize the Rick doctor with my tax money and I subsidize the rich real estate developer (and his low paid workers) with my taxes.

[pb4uski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj.mask .....similar to successful doctors Incorporating themselves offshore so they can avoid taxes; know a few who do this. ....

I'm skeptical and would love for you to share the details. Are these doctors U.S. citizens? Are the services performed in the U.S. or abroad?

[redduck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marko . ...We pay top dollar, pay on time and the checks don't bounce...doesn't get us anything. Painter came over yesterday (after 4 missed appointments) and told us he couldn't start for 4 months; just for a 4 day job to paint a kitchen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6miths Studies point to the fact that almost all OECD countries have greater economic mobility than the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pb4uski Then we should give immigrants who seek to enter this country illegally copies of those studies and directions to those countries.... problem solved.

Bad idea. Do that, pb4uski, and poor marko will never get his kitchen painted.

[travelover]

Anyone that has less money than me is a lazy bum that just doesn't want to work as hard as I did. Anyone with more money than me probably stole it, or worse, inherited it.

[HtownRose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj.mask I think this is a fundamental disagreement here. Some people see funneling 400million to your kids to avoid estate tax as “hard work” and others see it as a ‘system that allows the rich to break the rules and increase their wealth while the poor don’t have options’ - similar to successful doctors Incorporating themselves offshore so they can avoid taxes; know a few who do this. Unfortunately I, as a salaried employee don’t really have that option and end up paying 20% of my income in taxes. Sure, I could ‘pull myself up by my bootstraps, start my own business, and incorporate overseas as well to avoid taxes’ but I don’t believe the cost of the legal services would outweigh the savings for my income. So instead, I subsidize the Rick doctor with my tax money and I subsidize the rich real estate developer (and his low paid workers) with my taxes.

Agreed, this is a fundamental disagreement. IMO the desire to be able to choose who the fruits of your labor will benefit is as immutable as gravity, but that's just my opinion. Maybe if we made it illegal to pass on any wealth & 100% of assets reverted to the government at death, people would continue to work as hard to accumulate wealth as they do now.

I can only vouch for my own personal experience. There is no one I am motivated to leave an inheritance to, and so as soon as I had accumulated enough for a modest but comfortable retirement, I downshifted my career & now work part time for under $15 an hour just for health insurance. I plan to harvest capital gains at 0% tax & Roth convert part of my tIRA until I'm eligible for either retiree health insurance or Medicare. YMMV.

[razztazz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marko Doesn't work like that around here. Can't get anyone in a reasonable time frame at any price. We pay top dollar, pay on time and the checks don't bounce...doesn't get us anything. Painter came over yesterday (after 4 missed appointments) and told us he couldn't start for 4 months; just for a 4 day job to paint a kitchen.

HA! I thought this was just happening to me because I live in a small town. Can't get anybody to trim this tree all Summer. And a few other chores. One guy eventually showed up, gave me an estimate. I said "go for it" then he never came back. called his office a few times WTF?.

Yes, I have noticed since I was a youngster there doesn't seem to be any real incentive to doing the right thing right and playing by the rules.

[ShokWaveRider]

I think it depends on what one considers the "Dream". I would not add American as everyone is in the same boat no matter who they are. Here are my Criteria in the order of importance.

1) Having affordable GOOD COMPREHENSIVE Healthcare.
2) Having a nice comfortable home
3a) Not seeing snow..... ever
3b) Living within walking distance of a nice beach
4) Not waiting in traffic to get my groceries or move about town or go to Docs
5) Having enough means to have an upper middle class Quality of Life.

We have them all with the exception of number 1. This is absolutely the most important factor in any retirees life, and should be number 1 for everyone.

[MichaelB]

Rugged individualism, personal responsibility, strong work ethic and overcoming obstacles are core beliefs and fundamental components of our social fabric. They are the building blocks of our history and are themes of the stories of our achievement, and we point to their absence to explain poor outcomes.

The type of achievement we enjoy – early retirement and financial independence – demands all that, and good fortune as well. It requires 100% effort, many smart choices, but the things we cannot change also need to break our way. It really takes 150%. Our view is colored by survivorship bias, there are few or no members here who worked hard and made smart choices still suffered poor outcomes because of circumstances beyond their control.

It does not detract from our achievement to acknowledge we also made some poor choices and enjoyed good fortune. I think the thread title and subject are reminders that we should try to make sure others are able to benefit from their efforts just as we did.