Plight of older people

[JoeWras]

The three worst institutions I've visited have been, from worst to least worst:
1) Mental hospital, 1969
2) Medicaid nursing home, 1982
3) Prison yard, 1995

We visited my uncle in the mental hospital. Oh boy, I still remember that. The mumbling, the incredible amount of smoking.

My grandfather lingered in the medicaid nursing home. Still remember the smell of urine. My nightmare was from the time the man in the chair grabbed my coat and screamed at me (a late teen): "get me out of here!"

Prison was community service, playing sports with the incarcerated. We were basically cannon fodder. Glad the inmates enjoyed it! At least they had some esprit de corps.

Based on all of the above, I totally understand why many disenfranchised decide to roam the streets, whether we like it or not.

 

[meierlde]

So many chronically homeless people have mental illness and will not (can not) be housed successfully. They cannot help but wander because of their illness, and become aggressive with restrictions.
Similar to the USA, there may be shelters that assist them with meals and housing when needed, but incarceration may be the only option to actually keeping them somewhere.

Perhaps not in jails, but in nursing homes where because they have folks with dementia it is set up so the doors lock if they try to leave. Of course this is in a voluntary (by the person or medical power of attorney, next of kin) situation. Of course incarceration at between 30 and 60k per annum including medical is cheaper than other alternatives. But you might make this in a low security setting such as no bars etc. The issue might be in finding the next of kin or getting guardians appointed for the homeless who could make the decision.

 

[Koolau]

I'm betting that such people (those who had high-paying megacorp jobs but chose not to save) are a tiny fraction of impoverished seniors. Most impoverished seniors never got to the point where they were earning anywhere near that much money. But most of us had careers where we interacted with more of the former than of the latter.

The whole premise of FIRE is based on making "good choices" (saving, investing, delaying gratification, etc.) There are relatively few of us who have been able to FIRE which might imply that "good choices" (whatever those are) are not as common as we would hope.

I'm not certain what "tiny fraction" might imply (0.1%, 1%, 10%??). I'm certain that data exist which could illuminate this topic (how many are struggling in senior hood due to "poor choices" vs those who had "no choices.") No idea how to find (or interest in finding) such data, myself. The example of my profligate friend was used because I know the details pretty well. But I also know that my friend was not the only one to live paycheck to paycheck at Megacorp. While he is a true "cautionary tale" I know lots of folks who now struggle (not as badly) who made much more money than I ever did. My guess (there's a scientific word - maybe I should have said SWAG) is that there are a lot more folks struggling due to poor choices than we would at first believe. Since I have no data, I will leave it at that as YMMV.

 

[indiajust]

Today's options very different from hard work into an early grave of the 50's. Life span extension favors the financial ant over the grasshopper. Easy credit, sleazy education credit can easily sway the ants resolve.

Financial wolves are the only predators left in society. Actions still have consequences.

I prefer the present to the recent past. Uncertain finances are better than disease and death. Good problems to have. Considering elder poverty was a near certainty a hundred years back.

 

[imoldernu]

I r 1:

younger people may get alzheimer's disease, but it is less common. The number of people living with the disease doubles every 5 years beyond age 65. This number is projected to nearly triple to 14 million people by 2060

between 2000 and 2017 deaths from heart disease have decreased 9% while deaths from alzheimer's have increased 145%.

1 in 3 seniors dies with alzheimer's or another dementia. It kills more than breast cancer and prostate cancer combined.

In 2019, alzheimer's and other dementias will cost the nation $290 billion. By 2050, these costs could rise as high as $1.1 trillion.

An estimated 5.8 million americans of all ages are living with alzheimer's dementia in 2019. This number includes an estimated 5.6 million people age 65 and older and approximately 200,000 individuals under age 65 who have younger-onset alzheimer's.
One in 10 people age 65 and older (10 percent) has alzheimer's dementia.
Almost two-thirds of americans with alzheimer's are women.
Older african-americans are about twice as likely to have alzheimer's or other dementias as older whites.
Hispanics are about one and one-half times as likely to have alzheimer's or other dementias as older whites.

As the number of older americans grows rapidly, so too will the number of new and existing cases of alzheimer's. By 2050, the number of people age 65 and older with alzheimer’s dementia may grow to a projected 13.8 million, barring the development of medical breakthroughs to prevent, slow or cure alzh

Misc. Quotes, FWIW...

 

[Lancelot]

Your friend enjoyed his lifestyle while it worked. Who's to say he would be happier living your frugal lifestyle?

Up to him to enjoy blowing his cash; up to us to say we don't want to support such folly

 

[armor99]

Life is full of obstacles to overcome, and adversity will come to us all, if not in equal measure.....

But I have learned a few things along the way. Choices matter, attitude matters, and philosophy surely matters. No one can see the full road ahead, some people choose to ignore the future, others embrace and plan for it. Life is not even remotely fair. But there are an almost infinite number of things we can do to attempt to “stack the deck in our favor”.

A cousin of mine went to college to become a professional screen writer. I looked it up. About the same number of pro NFL players. I did not want to crush his dream, but I did remind him his odds were not good, and to have a plan b. He has been an elementary school teacher for years, with a huge loan debt to pay.

Sadly, I do not come from a loving family, or a wealthy one. From the time I got out of school I was VERY keenly aware that I was “working with no safety net”. No one coming to save me financially or otherwise If I really mess things up.

Being foolish was simply a luxury I cannot afford.... only now can walk that back a bit and relax more than I have.

I believe that most people if they chose to, can achieve their goals in life.

 

[skipro33]

Life is full of obstacles to overcome, and adversity will come to us all, if not in equal measure.....

But I have learned a few things along the way. Choices matter, attitude matters, and philosophy surely matters. No one can see the full road ahead, some people choose to ignore the future, others embrace and plan for it. Life is not even remotely fair. But there are an almost infinite number of things we can do to attempt to “stack the deck in our favor”.

A cousin of mine went to college to become a professional screen writer. I looked it up. About the same number of pro NFL players. I did not want to crush his dream, but I did remind him his odds were not good, and to have a plan b. He has been an elementary school teacher for years, with a huge loan debt to pay.

Sadly, I do not come from a loving family, or a wealthy one. From the time I got out of school I was VERY keenly aware that I was “working with no safety net”. No one coming to save me financially or otherwise If I really mess things up.

Being foolish was simply a luxury I cannot afford.... only now can walk that back a bit and relax more than I have.

I believe that most people if they chose to, can achieve their goals in life.

This very much mirrors my story. Thanks for posting it.

 

[NW-Bound]

I have been following stories on the homeless and drug addicts in West Coast cities. It sounds like it keeps getting worse and worse, and nobody seems to have a solution.

I know it's a different problem than that of the thread topic. Poor, but sane elderly people can be helped. The drug addicts and the mentally ills cannot be so easily helped. And it is easy to talk about compassion when you do not have people camping in front of your home, urinating and defecating over your sidewalk, and throwing hypodermic needles everywhere. How do you help them?

I am just glad I do not yet see any of this anywhere near where I live.

 

[Starsky]

And why is society responsible for any of this? I guess I'm perplexed.

To offer some food for thought on this interesting question...humans are social animals. Nobody in the United States has had a solitary life; nobody has grown up without the benefit of support from others. Our schools, our roads, the internet you used to comment with - none of these are your or my creations, they are societal creations. We are 'responsible' for each other because we have all freely shared with each other to be able to be where we are today.

While life is a product of choices, it is also a product of circumstance; and pure chance can have a lot to do with the outcome. The fact is that not everyone has the good fortune to live an 'above average' life. At least half the people in the world are below average by definition and may need some help. Physical and mental health issues, family issues, natural disasters, economic stressors - all of these are outside our control. It only takes one bad driver having a bad day to rock your world. The idea that we are solitary beings and can do it all ourselves is egoistic fantasy. Even the idea of a "lone wolf" is a romantic myth. Wolves are very social creatures too.

The founders were highly influenced by John Locke and Thomas Hobbes who both promoted the Social Contract - an implicit agreement among the members of a society to cooperate for social benefits. A democracy that protects the rights of the people facilitates the Social Contract that is necessary for its survival. The people have sacrificed some of their power to the state, but retain the ability to revoke that privilege through legal and political means.

The history of our nation - from the Erie Canal to the Louisiana Purchase, to the Intercontinental Railroad, the New Deal, to the Moon - is the ultimate expression of the social contract and that is what makes us quite unique among free countries. It is always interesting to travel and see other countries documentaries about our remarkable accomplishments in their TV shows. We are nothing if not audacious.

Unfortunately, we have been so captivated by modern capitalism, it is easier for people to understand investing in a dam or a highway than it is to understand why we should invest in people. The early industrialists and large retailers understood that their workers were also their customers, and sought to pay a wage that would allow them to afford their products. They were helping to build their own markets. I can't imagine any company today that would ask themselves if their workers could afford to buy their products. The global market is so large that they don't care anymore.

This is where I start to wonder who we have become, when we deny help to needy people because we have judged them to be too lazy to deserve it. It's easy to ignore the problem because we - as the 'above average' - rarely have to engage people who are living at that level - or even enter their neighborhoods. I know nothing about living in the 'hood'. My life is so much better than that; I have only faint memories of what it feels like to be living on the edge every day and trying to keep my own head above water. Gratitude and generosity are the appropriate sentiments, especially in this post-T-Giving weekend.

 

[Running_Man]

My father retired with a paid off home and no debts and made the mistake of taking 200K payout instead of $1800 a month in 1991 when interest rates were 10 percent. A few years in his company retiree healthcare dropped prescription coverage, and added charges for supplemental insurance. My mother diagnosed with Diabetes same year as he retired and then lung cancer a few years later. By the time my mother passed my father was living only on his social security after selling the house to move into an apartment.

Along the way the rules changed to allow retiree health plans to change as company desired and interest rates were continually lowered thanks to Long Term Capital Management, Y2K and the 2008 banking crisis.

Never once did my father complain and refused all help, he lived on the $1700 a month of Social Security and paid the $150 a month for supplemental. Just following the rules he thought were in place would have been nice but the moral hazard created by not holding banking (basically reclassing retiree income to banks and the working class by avoiding recessions by Fed) to the same standard older retirees is I believe leading to a class of people that realizes you need to clamor for benefits or they will not be given.

The successful class has fully capitalized on the "Fed" put as the FED is in full defense mode of the stock market. FED appears willing if necessary to resort to negative rates to pull money from anyone who is "foolish" enough to expect an interest payment on their savings that would ever even equal inflation. Presently per AAII the "average" investor in 2019 is investing 68 percent of their investing in stocks, back in 1987 before the FED put came into full mode stocks were 45% of the average investor's portfolio.

 

[stephenson]

Education. All topics, all kinds.

 

[USGrant1962]

...

Presently per AAII the "average" investor in 2019 is investing 68 percent of their investing in stocks, back in 1987 before the FED put came into full mode stocks were 45% of the average investor's portfolio.

That is odd, since the U.S. bond market is larger than the U.S. stock market. That math doesn't add up. AAII is aimed at stock picking, so perhaps they are talking about brokerage accounts only?

And Fed is not an acronym, it is an abbreviation (pet peeve thread material).

 

[Gumby]

Education. All topics, all kinds.

Oddly enough, it is education that may drive some of these elderly people's plight. Specifically, the cost of educating their progeny. This interesting report by Freedom Debt Relief https://www.freedomdebtrelief.com/newsroom/a-student-loan-debt-crisis/ points out that many have needed to adjust their own retirements because they have taken out parental loans or have run up credit card debt for their children's college.

Forty percent of parents believe their child’s college education cost has impacted their retirement age, and 2 in 5 (41%) said the cost of their child’s college education has impacted their overall retirement plan. Parents are sacrificing quite a bit for their child’s college education, with 42% saying they had given up saving for retirement, 42% had given up going on vacation, and 31% had given up retiring when they initially desired.

 

[skipro33]

This is where I start to wonder who we have become, when we deny help to needy people because we have judged them to be too lazy to deserve it.

You say this as if such a determination about laziness has no merit. Evil exists. Lazy is a serious expression of evil.

It's easy to ignore the problem because we - as the 'above average' - rarely have to engage people who are living at that level

No one is allowed to ignore the problem. They are instead made to feel guilty about their status and prosperity. We are constantly bombarded by ads trying to guilt the haves into financial aide to the have-nots. Usually by thieves trying to skim those funds to their own pockets.

 

[Walt34]

TThis is where I start to wonder who we have become, when we deny help to needy people because we have judged them to be too lazy to deserve it.

I'm with skipro33 on this one. There is such a thing as too lazy, too self-centered to make even the barest modicum of effort to support oneself, to acknowledge that other people exist, that their priorities are not yours, and then whine "I'm a victim of society" when those selfish demands are not met.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Running_Man View Post
...

Presently per AAII the "average" investor in 2019 is investing 68 percent of their investing in stocks, back in 1987 before the FED put came into full mode stocks were 45% of the average investor's portfolio.

That is odd, since the U.S. bond market is larger than the U.S. stock market. That math doesn't add up. AAII is aimed at stock picking, so perhaps they are talking about brokerage accounts only?

Not at all surprising to me ... my parents' investments consisted primarily of certificates of deposit and other bank accounts. They held a few individual bonds as their more aggressive investments. Their few ventures into the stock market in their lifetime often yielded negative results ... I have a Tucker Car Co. stock certificate as part of that legacy.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

No one is allowed to ignore the problem. They are instead made to feel guilty about their status and prosperity. We are constantly bombarded by ads trying to guilt the haves into financial aide to the have-nots. Usually by thieves trying to skim those funds to their own pockets.

Can you direct me to some of these ads? I can't recall being exposed to many of them. Most of the solicitations I see come from Shriners Hospital and the Wounded Warrior Project.

 

[skipro33]

Can you direct me to some of these ads? I can't recall being exposed to many of them. Most of the solicitations I see come from Shriners Hospital and the Wounded Warrior Project.

My god! You mean to tell me you don't get hammered, especially this time of year, with mail to donate from hundreds of various charities?

Funny you should mention Wounded Warrior Project. Those people should be ashamed. Just google, "Wounded Warrior Project Scandal". Here's a sample;
https://www.foxnews.com/us/wounded-warrior-projects-top-execs-fired-amid-lavish-spending-scandal

 

[NW-Bound]

They brought in $340 million, and spent only 60% ($204M) on veterans.

They will say that without them, the veterans will not get that $204M.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

My god! You mean to tell me you don't get hammered, especially this time of year, with mail to donate from hundreds of various charities?

Funny you should mention Wounded Warrior Project. Those people should be ashamed. Just google, "Wounded Warrior Project Scandal". Here's a sample;
https://www.foxnews.com/us/wounded-warrior-projects-top-execs-fired-amid-lavish-spending-scandal

Not really. For years we've given annually to the Milwaukee Rescue Mission, which by some barometers would be a gift to the undeserving. They send us some mailers occasionally trying to wring a few more bucks from us, but I wouldn't say we're inundated.

I knew about the Wounded Warrior Project's fiscal mis/malfeasance. They sent us some nice notepads for a few years, but those stopped coming after we didn't respond.

 

[skipro33]

My mother passed away in 2007. My father lived with us after until last year. He hasn't made donations since 2007 in his name, my brother takes care of all his finances. (He has dementia) Today I got charity requests for both Mom and Dad, each in their names. St. Jude, ASPCA and Goodwill. AARP too, but I am not sure they are charity or even nonprofit. DW and I both get a couple every day, all year long. If you are not hammered with mailings, then you are lucky.
Now, don't get me started on the phone calls. Not just robo calls. Lately it's been police charities, but any first responder groups and many others call. I'd say at least 7 or 8 a day.
The point is; I'm well aware of charitable needs. I'm also aware most are scamming and so do individuals. Just look on the street corners for folks holding signs looking for free money. It's an evil world and it's human nature.

I have my charities, just as anyone else, but I do my due diligence to be sure they are on the up-and-up and my money is going to make a difference; Salvation Army, local animal shelters, local church coat and food closets, etc. My wife has hers too; sponsoring children, local hospital, local library reading programs, school lunch programs, etc. We both spend a few weeks in Costa Rica on construction projects for abused women and children as well. She teaches the children while I train men how to on construction; hand digging a well for example. Water sanitation, safe food practices. etc. Love to help those who help themselves, not so much the moochers.

 

[armor99]

I'm with skipro33 on this one. There is such a thing as too lazy, too self-centered to make even the barest modicum of effort to support oneself, to acknowledge that other people exist, that their priorities are not yours, and then whine "I'm a victim of society" when those selfish demands are not met.

Exactly.... so why is it “heartless” not to help those in need, but not “heartless” at all to put yourself in a position where you need other people’s help through your selfish choices in the past?
I will never understand why some believe that a very large percentage of adults are nothing more than mental children unable to do even the most basic of planning for themselves.
I know we all form our opinions based on our experiences. And my experiences have shown me that the vast majority of people who find themselves in financial trouble can trace that problem to poor decisions going back over decades, not days. I truly want to help those rare people the got a bad roll of the dice, but very rarely have I seen it.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

My mother passed away in 2007. My father lived with us after until last year. He hasn't made donations since 2007 in his name, my brother takes care of all his finances. (He has dementia) Today I got charity requests for both Mom and Dad, each in their names. St. Jude, ASPCA and Goodwill. AARP too, but I am not sure they are charity or even nonprofit. DW and I both get a couple every day, all year long. If you are not hammered with mailings, then you are lucky.
Now, don't get me started on the phone calls. Not just robo calls. Lately it's been police charities, but any first responder groups and many others call. I'd say at least 7 or 8 a day.
The point is; I'm well aware of charitable needs. I'm also aware most are scamming and so do individuals. Just look on the street corners for folks holding signs looking for free money. It's an evil world and it's human nature.

I have my charities, just as anyone else, but I do my due diligence to be sure they are on the up-and-up and my money is going to make a difference; Salvation Army, local animal shelters, local church coat and food closets, etc. My wife has hers too; sponsoring children, local hospital, local library reading programs, school lunch programs, etc. We both spend a few weeks in Costa Rica on construction projects for abused women and children as well. She teaches the children while I train men how to on construction; hand digging a well for example. Water sanitation, safe food practices. etc. Love to help those who help themselves, not so much the moochers.

Yeah, I don't even answer the phone anymore unless I recognize the number. It's not just dubious charities either. Remember Rachel from Credit Card Services? Too bad phone lines don't have spam filters. For me, that's what voice mail has become.

But I wouldn't call them moochers so much as out-and-out financial predators, a lot of them working barely within the margins of the law. And that includes charities that spend nearly half their revenue on salaries and executive perks.

I don't get incensed about the shabby guy collecting a fiver or two at the traffic light. It's the pirates with money and clout milking the system big time that upset me -- payday lenders, for instance. Yes, there's a lot of injustice in the world, but most of it rains from the top down.

 

[Gumby]

Just a reminder that you can scope out charities here https://www.charitynavigator.org/ to determine how much of your donated dollar actually goes to helping people and how much goes to overhead and fundraising costs.