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View Poll Results: What is your usual vehicle buying habit?
PAY CASH for a NEW vehicle and drive it into the ground (not worried about resale of trade in value). 156 45.75%
FINANCE a NEW vehicle and drive it into the ground (not worried about resale of trade in value). 32 9.38%
PAY CASH for a NEW vehicle, but TRADE every few years while it still has value. 32 9.38%
FINANCE a NEW vehicle, but trade every few years while it still has value. 4 1.17%
PAY CASH for only USED vehicles because I want someone else to take the big depreciation. 101 29.62%
FINANCE only USED vehicles because I want someone else to take the big depreciation. 11 3.23%
I LEASE vehicles (either personal or through a business). 5 1.47%
I only purchase my cars at the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance, and my CPA worries about the details. 0 0%
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Poll:Vehicle habits
Old 01-31-2021, 12:19 AM   #201
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Poll:Vehicle habits

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Originally Posted by ivinsfan View Post
Would you mind sharing how you pull this off in the real world. Cause I am not seeing that large of a discount on slightly used cars. For example do you look for a certain brand or type of car to make this happen?



We just traded off a car we drove for 8 years, got a very fair offer from the dealership. That car has already been turned over..It had around 100K and needed new tires...looks like it sold for about a 55-60% discount off the original purchase price...now sticker price is not always purchase price.


Sure. Itís actually pretty easy. Scan the web for Kia, Hyundai or Genesis. Am patient and move quickly when I find a good car. Fly one way and drive back. Must get tons of pics and video.

Have purchased a 2013 Genesis, 2014 Cadenza SXL, 2015 Equus Ultimate and 2016 Genesis - all loaded with top of line features, between $20-26K with 10-35K miles and 3-5 years old. In all cases paid between 35-50% of sticker. All have been great cars. Clean CARFAX and always buy from a new car dealer.
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Old 01-31-2021, 01:24 AM   #202
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Infotainment systems are OK when they can be replaced with aftermarket systems if they fail. Infotainment systems that incorporate essential vehicle functions like heat and defrost on their touchscreens, locking in exact replacement from the manufacturer, definitely aren't OK.
I've never worried about the infortainment system failing.

I have had transmissions and turbo's fail and those can cost thousands to replace when they do. Plus, you can't drive the car in most cases until you get it fixed.
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Old 01-31-2021, 01:00 PM   #203
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I've never worried about the infortainment system failing.

I have had transmissions and turbo's fail and those can cost thousands to replace when they do. Plus, you can't drive the car in most cases until you get it fixed.
If the only way to turn the defroster on is through that touchscreen, the car isn't driveable except for a trip to the dealer on a nice day to pay whatever they ask for a new head unit.

That is likely to be comparable to the price of a turbocharger.
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Old 01-31-2021, 03:06 PM   #204
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If the only way to turn the defroster on is through that touchscreen, the car isn't driveable...
This gave me a giggle...up until about 7 years ago, the only two cars I owned were a 1968 VW Bug convertible, and a 1971 VW van. Neither had a defroster that ever worked. I was the "defroster" myself, with a squeegee for the inside and an ice scraper - my credit card - for the outside
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Old 02-04-2021, 07:51 PM   #205
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If the only way to turn the defroster on is through that touchscreen, the car isn't driveable except for a trip to the dealer on a nice day to pay whatever they ask for a new head unit.

That is likely to be comparable to the price of a turbocharger.
That's not true - I can turn on the defroster of both of our Tesla's using my phone app.

While the early Model S didn't have phone functionality, all of the new ones do.

The same is true of the cabin temperature and heated seats, it's not a problem. When my Volvo needed a new transmission at 80K miles I was informed the turbo bearings had failed as well and needed replacement. Along with a couple of other minor things, the total bill was $7K.

I don't expect the screen in either of our Model 3's will ever fail - they are known to be super reliable. But if the screen of one of them did fail, however unlikely, I can continue driving the car and decide if it's worth repairing. of course, the answer would likely be "yes" unless the car was a real road warrior on it's very last legs.
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Old 02-04-2021, 07:57 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by CindyBlue View Post
This gave me a giggle...up until about 7 years ago, the only two cars I owned were a 1968 VW Bug convertible, and a 1971 VW van. Neither had a defroster that ever worked. I was the "defroster" myself, with a squeegee for the inside and an ice scraper - my credit card - for the outside
Kids these days: My defroster broke, I guess I can't drive.

Our early cars were similar - I had a 1971 VW Beetle and a 1972 VW Transporter. Both were good cars by the standards of the day and both defrosters "worked as designed" which is to say they started to defrost about the time you were arriving at your destination!
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Old 02-05-2021, 03:38 PM   #207
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This gave me a giggle...up until about 7 years ago, the only two cars I owned were a 1968 VW Bug convertible, and a 1971 VW van. Neither had a defroster that ever worked. I was the "defroster" myself, with a squeegee for the inside and an ice scraper - my credit card - for the outside
Reminds me of flying a Piper Colt when it was 15 below (F). The defroster w*rks (is intended to w*rk) like a VW - the heat/defroster is a muff around the exhaust which flows by ram air into the cockpit (VW may have a blower.) So at 15 below, you get very little heat and virtually none when you cut the engine to land. It was an interesting experience landing with a fist sized view port in the windshield. Everything else was totally iced over. But I digress.

I too do not want to depend on a touch screen for anything - not even the radio - much less the defroster or other actual controls. YMMV
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Old 02-05-2021, 03:54 PM   #208
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I too do not want to depend on a touch screen for anything - not even the radio - much less the defroster or other actual controls. YMMV
The US Navy learned that lesson in the wake of the USS Fitzgerald and the USS John S. McCain collisions, particularly the latter. That's why they are retrofitting mechanical ship controls to the Arleigh Burke class destroyers. https://www.naval-technology.com/new...ical-controls/
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Old 02-05-2021, 04:03 PM   #209
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That's not true - I can turn on the defroster of both of our Tesla's using my phone app.

While the early Model S didn't have phone functionality, all of the new ones do.

The same is true of the cabin temperature and heated seats, it's not a problem. When my Volvo needed a new transmission at 80K miles I was informed the turbo bearings had failed as well and needed replacement. Along with a couple of other minor things, the total bill was $7K.

I don't expect the screen in either of our Model 3's will ever fail - they are known to be super reliable. But if the screen of one of them did fail, however unlikely, I can continue driving the car and decide if it's worth repairing. of course, the answer would likely be "yes" unless the car was a real road warrior on it's very last legs.
I can turn the defroster on/off, adjust the temperature with voice on my Y. The Model 3 has that, yes?
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:48 PM   #210
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The US Navy learned that lesson in the wake of the USS Fitzgerald and the USS John S. McCain collisions, particularly the latter. That's why they are retrofitting mechanical ship controls to the Arleigh Burke class destroyers. https://www.naval-technology.com/new...ical-controls/
The problem identified with the ship collisions had to do with the design of the screen controls (overly complex), not the reliability. The Tesla on-screen controls are well-designed, simple and intuitive. And, the complimentary controls on the phone work, even when inside your house or place of work which is a really nice feature to have.

SpaceX uses touchscreen controls for all flight controls on the Crew Dragon and if it's reliable enough for spaceflight, it's reliable enough for me. But, yeah, they have to be intuitive and easy to understand - unlike the controls identified as a contributing factor to the ship collisions.
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:01 PM   #211
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I can turn the defroster on/off, adjust the temperature with voice on my Y. The Model 3 has that, yes?
Yes, and it works well. I forgot about that because I tend to leave mine on "auto" all the time. All Tesla's have this, even the least expensive models.

What I've found is that people who are critical of various Tesla features generally haven't used them. At all.

People who swear that auto-pilot is a dangerous feature don't understand that taking manual control is as as fast as turning the steering wheel in the direction you want to go. There is no perceptible time lag. And it really helps you arrive at your destination feeling relaxed and ready to go.

Tesla accident rates are lowest for cars using autopilot. This is measured in accidents per million miles and the difference is not small. Why would people claim it's more dangerous when the facts present incontrovertible evidence to the contrary?
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:17 PM   #212
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The problem identified with the ship collisions had to do with the design of the screen controls (overly complex), not the reliability. The Tesla on-screen controls are well-designed, simple and intuitive. And, the complimentary controls on the phone work, even when inside your house or place of work which is a really nice feature to have.

SpaceX uses touchscreen controls for all flight controls on the Crew Dragon and if it's reliable enough for spaceflight, it's reliable enough for me. But, yeah, they have to be intuitive and easy to understand - unlike the controls identified as a contributing factor to the ship collisions.
It's unlikely your Tesla will ever suffer battle damage and need to keep going. A Navy ship will. Controls for the latter need to be simple, reliable and rugged. Just because you can computerize something doesn't mean you should.
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:29 PM   #213
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I too do not want to depend on a touch screen for anything - not even the radio - much less the defroster or other actual controls. YMMV
As MRG said, the voice feature works really well. You can use natural language and mix up the order of the command and it will still understand you almost every time. You can push the right steering wheel button and say:

Turn the defroster on high
Play some classical music
Turn the heat to high
Open the glovebox
Turn the radio to level 5
Turn on the air conditioning
Lock all the doors
Turn the wipers on level 2
Open the frunk
Fold the mirrors
Turn off the driver's seat heater

Etc. - you get the idea. Those who say "I don't want to be dependent upon a touchscreen" have probably never owned a Tesla.

It's more of a nice feature than a problem.
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:34 PM   #214
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It's unlikely your Tesla will ever suffer battle damage and need to keep going. A Navy ship will. Controls for the latter need to be both simple and rugged. Just because you can computerize something doesn't mean you should.
There is a natural tendency for some older people to resist change, they tend to want things to stay the same.

But younger people (and more adaptive older people) are not as set in their ways and will readily adopt anything that is easier to use or demonstrably better. In other words, those who don't want change do not prevent progress from happening. There were people who strenuously argued against the automobile, who refused to make the transition from horse to automobile and there are still people who refuse to use a computer.

And that's OK. These people will not hold back progress by refusing to adopt it. True progress never fails because most people will adopt something if it is demonstrably better. There were a lot of people when the first iPhone was revealed, who swore on their mother's grave they would never use a phone that didn't have physical buttons.

Most of them are now using phones without physical buttons.
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:43 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by RetiredAtThirty-eight View Post
There is a natural tendency for some older people to resist change, they want things to stay the same.

But younger people (and more adaptive older people) are not as set in their ways and will readily adopt anything that is easier to use or demonstrably better. In other words, those who don't want change do not prevent progress from happening. There were people who strenuously argued against the automobile, who refused to make the transition from horse to automobile and there are still people who refuse to use a computer.

And that's OK. These people will not hold back progress by refusing to adopt it. True progress never fails because most people will adopt something if it is demonstrably better.
What are your qualifications to opine on the controls of Navy ships?
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:58 PM   #216
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What are your qualifications to opine on the controls of Navy ships?
For five years I lived next door to a Rear-Admiral who was in charge of an aircraft carrier fleet in the Navy, LOL!

Funny story: He and his wife invited me and my wife out on his sailing yacht that he had recently mounted a 10 hp outboard to since he thought that sounded like a better deal than paying thousands to rebuild the inboard diesel. He didn't seem to know how to start the outboard but, after 10 minutes of trying he finally listened to me (I told him to just barely crack the throttle open rather than opening it too far or none at all). It started right up!

Hint: The outboard was 100% manual, no computer or touchscreens, LOL!
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Old 02-05-2021, 08:50 PM   #217
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***
.... When my Volvo needed a new transmission at 80K miles I was informed the turbo bearings had failed as well and needed replacement. Along with a couple of other minor things, the total bill was $7K.

***
A new tranny at 80,000 miles?!? Surely this wasn't within the last decade? That's abysmal. (Had to rewrite this to avoid obscenities!)

Never having been willing to pay the premium, my impression had been that Volvo makes really good cars. But my expectation is minimum 200,000 miles before total repair bills start to be noticeable (Honda and Toyota).

7k at 80,000 miles conjures up images of lemon laws and class actions.
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Old 02-05-2021, 09:08 PM   #218
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As MRG said, the voice feature works really well. You can use natural language and mix up the order of the command and it will still understand you almost every time. You can push the right steering wheel button and say:

Turn the defroster on high
Play some classical music
Turn the heat to high
Open the glovebox
Turn the radio to level 5
Turn on the air conditioning
Lock all the doors
Turn the wipers on level 2
Open the frunk
Fold the mirrors
Turn off the driver's seat heater

Etc. - you get the idea. Those who say "I don't want to be dependent upon a touchscreen" have probably never owned a Tesla.

It's more of a nice feature than a problem.
Actually, son has a Tesla and I was impressed with it - touch screen and all. I'm not (a total) Luddite and I can master most electronics if I must. BUT, there are way too many stories of folks replacing infotainment systems out of warranty and being hit with $2500 bills. I can buy a good stand-alone computer with that kind of money. If my ability to run the car depends upon a touch screen, I don't want it. It's not so much technology but durability. I've owned 20 or more cars and never had a problem turing on the heater (I take that back - one car had to have the heater motor replaced. The ram flow was good enough to keep me warm until I could get into my mechanic.) YMMV

Oh, what do you do if you have laryngitis?
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Old 02-05-2021, 09:33 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by RetiredAtThirty-eight View Post
That's not true - I can turn on the defroster of both of our Tesla's using my phone app.

While the early Model S didn't have phone functionality, all of the new ones do.

The same is true of the cabin temperature and heated seats, it's not a problem. When my Volvo needed a new transmission at 80K miles I was informed the turbo bearings had failed as well and needed replacement. Along with a couple of other minor things, the total bill was $7K.

I don't expect the screen in either of our Model 3's will ever fail - they are known to be super reliable. But if the screen of one of them did fail, however unlikely, I can continue driving the car and decide if it's worth repairing. of course, the answer would likely be "yes" unless the car was a real road warrior on it's very last legs.
The recent Telsa recall is interesting reading -
https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-r...es-11612270332

From the article:
"The move comes after the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration requested a recall last month, saying the touch screen in some models can fail when a memory chip runs out of storage capacity, affecting functions such as defrosting, turn-signal functionality and driver assistance."

"Tesla said in a letter to federal regulators made public Tuesday that while it disagreed that the issue constituted a defect in the vehicles, it was going ahead with a recall to conclude the investigation and provide a better experience for customers.

'It is economically, if not technologically, infeasible to expect that such components can or should be designed to last the vehicleís entire useful life,' Tesla said in the letter."


Personally I'm still not a fan of these all in one large screen displays. This attitude doesn't sway my opinion.
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Old 02-05-2021, 09:42 PM   #220
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More interesting reading -
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...last-5-6-years

"In a letter to the NHTSA, Tesla vice president of legal Al Prescott said that "given a reasonable average daily use of 1.4 cycles, the expected life would be five to six years." He added that "NHTSA has not presented any evidence to suggest that that the expected life is outside industry norms of that the eMMC flash memory device itself does not comport with that average lifetime estimate."

Yet that implies Tesla doesn't expect its touchscreens to last the lifetime of the cars they're installed in. A 2020 IHS Markit study estimated the average age of a car on U.S. roads to be 11.9 years, and the current recall includes some cars from the 2012 model year, meaning they're almost 10 years old."
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