Realistic Investment returns: 7-10 years

Thats true.
Bengen, however, used 5 year Treasuries.
Somehow the conversation has moved to volatility and Beta, Govvies help there.
The only additional thing I would note is that the Trinity Study, one of the foundational documents for the 4% rule, used high grade corporate bonds as the fixed income component. If you are going to vary your fixed income from that, you need to accept the possibility that the study's conclusions may not hold for your situation.
 
... A 10% increase, followed by a 10% decrease, averages to 0, but annualized is -1%...

For the long run, it is critical to avoid a really bad year that can take multiple good years to compensate.

I like to look at the long-term performance of stodgy Wellesley vs. the S&P 500 for a reminder.

From $10K in 1990 up to 2000, Wellesley grew to $27K in 2000, while the S&P grew to $50K. A huge difference!

But after two recessions, both are neck-to-neck at $73K in 2013. Wellesley simply did not crash as hard with its 40% stock AA. Tortoise catching up with the hare.

From 2013 till now, Wellesley trails badly again at $114K against $162K. It's interesting to see what will happen next.
 
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... Average annual return is a simple average, while annualized reflects volatility. A 10% increase, followed by a 10% decrease, averages to 0, but annualized is -1%. This is critical when discussing volatility and projecting returns. ...
Oh, I get that. I guess it never occurred to me to use that kind of arithmetic when looking at portfolio return, either for a year or cumulatively. I simply multiply prior period return by current period return to get cumulative return of a portfolio.

... Volatility reduces real portfolio return. ...
Well, that's mathematically incorrect. Hence my confusion regarding your statements. The real return will be increased if the "ups" are stronger than the "downs." I think this is what Sharpe Ratio and Sortino Ratio are trying to get at, though I have never paid much attention to them. And the fact is that real world value excursions are not centered on zero. If they were, the market would never go up. The history shows stronger ups than downs.

... for people in the withdrawal phase with a high dependence on portfolio income, high volatility is a worse case condition. Not the worst case, but very dangerous. While we focus on future returns, it's just as important to keep portfolio survival in mind.
Well there are two flavors of portfolio income, as I tried to point out earlier. Income obtained by selling volatile assets aka equities is indeed risky/SORR. Income obtained by selling less volatile assets like the TIPS we own can finesse the risk during periods of low equity values. In our case we have been very forunate, so our fixed income tranche is probably enough to maintain us for the rest of our lives and never need replenishment. But we can replenish during periods of higher asset values without the necessity/impossibility of calling exact tops. That's what rebalancing is all about.

Agree completely on survival if that's where an investor is. That's why the "subtract your age from .." rules are so stupid. But for an investor with reasonably comfortable assets I think paranoia over volatility unnecessarily limits portfolio growth.
 
Nope. I meant to say exactly what I said. From August 8, 2007 (picked because it was convenient and close to the market top) until January 31, 2009 (picked because it was convenient and close to the bottom), the S&P 500 Index dropped from 1453 to 825, a drop of 43%. During that same period, the Dow Jones Equal Weighted US Corporate Bond Index dropped from 1538 to 734, a drop of 52%. There may be minor variation because I am trying to put my cursor on a graph, but those numbers should be very close. And they show a correlation approaching 1.0
Of course corporate bonds are correlated to stocks! For that reason, it’s not wise to use mostly corporate bonds to diversify against stock downturns. You need to use bond funds that have a high percentage of govt-backed high quality debt for this purpose.
 
Sounds like your PhD program didn't cover two-variable data tables.

https://www.educba.com/two-variable-data-table-in-excel/

You could have one variable be nominal rate and the other be the inflation rate.... and other uses.


Last time I used that function (at Megacorp) it required the MSDN developers license keys to download and install. Outside of Megacorp I no longer have MSDN keys. Maybe its free now... but I no longer use Excel.


Apache OpenOffice has a similar function called "multiple operations" but when I played with it it was still a bit fragile (or my spreadsheet has sprawled into "too big/complex" territory).
 
Well, that's mathematically incorrect. Hence my confusion regarding your statements. The real return will be increased if the "ups" are stronger than the "downs." I think this is what Sharpe Ratio and Sortino Ratio are trying to get at, though I have never paid much attention to them. And the fact is that real world value excursions are not centered on zero. If they were, the market would never go up. The history shows stronger ups than downs.

We are talking about different things, so I think it doesn’t make sense to continue this exchange.
 
For a 60/40 portfolio over the next ten years, I'd guess a return of about 4% nominal, 2% real. Wish it was better, however, we're at a point of very high stock valuations and incredibly low fixed income interest rates.....and there is the tendency for things to revert to the mean.
 
I plotted the 10 year real return for a 60/40 portfolio versus starting P/E 10 for the S&P 500, and fit the resulting curve to an equation. If I plug in the current P/E 10, it suggests a real annual return of 3.7% over the next 10 years.
 
Over the past 20 years (Dec 1999 to Dec 2019) the S&P 500 has returned an inflation adjusted 3.81% including reinvested dividends. I'm planning on a 4% over inflation portfolio return for the long haul. I'm also planning on a less than 3% WR I've avoided bad SOR since I retired but the probability of that SOR win lasting 10 years is zero %. The S&P is over 105% above it's long term mean, and mean reversion is a certainty.
 
I plotted the 10 year real return for a 60/40 portfolio versus starting P/E 10 for the S&P 500, and fit the resulting curve to an equation. If I plug in the current P/E 10, it suggests a real annual return of 3.7% over the next 10 years.

I use 3.5% real in the relevant calculators, so I will take 3.7%.:)
 
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