Really frugal? Read on...

[daylatedollarshort]

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Originally Posted by aim-high I don't think it's so important at all. I raised the fuss here because it gets lots of search activity and pays well because there's a lot of money in managing or telling other people how to manage their money. Some of us are rubbed a little wrong by that, especially when their creds are questionable.

I think it gets back to Gumby's list of questions -

http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...ire-69999.html

For people who can't pass this list of questions for themselves and dependents, I would say they don't have enough money to be voluntarily retired. It is tough to really have enough to retire extremely early in the U.S. with the double whammy of a lack of a cohesive social services safety net combined with super high prices for LTC, dental and medical expenses.

It doesn't matter if they ride their bikes to the grocery store store in the rain and make their own yogurt to save 50 cents an hour. A person can't count on living on $15K a year forever if even under the ACA plans if their out of pocket max and out of network costs can run $20K or more a person per year in the event of a serious illness or accident.

As one article on the middle class squeeze put it, “America is a place where luxuries are cheap and necessities costly. A big-screen TV costs much less than it does in Europe, but health care will sink you.”

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by FIREd I am not sure I even personally know any retired folks then. My grandparents worked the farm until they died (even though their SS and pensions easily covered their expenses). My dad (on SS and executive's pension) manages his rental properties and has a young working wife. My mom babysits for the neighbors a few hours a week to supplement her small SS and pension. MIL receives large alimony payments from her working ex-husband to supplement her SS and annuities. All my aunts and uncles have part time jobs (from ironing/tailoring clothes to managing rentals to making and selling firewood). They'd all tell you that they are retired, but I guess that's not good enough for this crowd's exacting standards.

I'm in the same predicament. My maternal grandparents farmed (with their own hands) for a living. Over the years, they sold off pieces of the farm as the got older. Eventually, they got down to just a few small fields (about when SS kicked in). They didn't really make a lot of money in the later years, and mostly ate what they grew. But growing their own food and bartering some of it for other food was part of their "budget" (which I'm sure they didn't have). Eventually disability took the vigor out of grandpa, and the farming shrunk to almost nothing. Are they really retired if they are physically disabled to the point of not being able to complete productive tasks? Probably not by the definitions here because they were reliant on that for food.

My paternal grandparents were another case of never retiring per some definitions here. Grandma quit working and started drawing a modest pension and eventually SS, but grandpa, even after conveying his modest auto shop to his son, kept going to the shop. I don't know if he did much more than drink beer, shoot the $hit, and look at tool sales mags with scantily clad ladies, but he was "at work" until he died. So grandma wasn't retired that whole time he was piddling around at his son's shop, right? By the time grandpa died, grandma was disabled to the point of needing assistance. She followed grandpa into the hereafter shortly thereafter.

My parents will be in the same situation of not being retired even though they are FI. Next summer my mom will be "retired" (per her employer's definition) drawing a full retirement pension and just a year away from drawing SS. But she won't be "retired" per some definitions here, since my father will continue to work for a few more years till hitting 65 (for health insurance since they still don't quite trust Obamacare in spite of qualifying for for steep subsidies). She'll be doing much of the same stuff I do (spending time with kids/family, travel, social engagements, helping people out). She might pick up a few hours of work each week, perhaps even paid work! By my estimates, they are FI twice over.

I'll have to let her know that some here won't issue her an official retirement card. She'll be so sad. Almost as sad as I am.

My ~70 year old neighbors across the street with a paid off house and a pair of government pensions probably aren't retired. I think the husband works occasionally on weekends with one of his hobbies.

My 66 year old uncle is drawing SS and living off his investments. He spends a LOT of time at his beach condo. I think he still flips used cars and riding lawnmowers on autotrader/craigslist. And he dabbles in ebay. He did officially leave his job and finally sold his interests in a couple of restaurants where he was the owner/manager. He says he's retired, but he didn't know that the used car and lawnmower sales disqualifies him from being truly retired. And he still combs flea markets and antique shops looking for other things to resale for a buck. If I can remember his number at his beach condo I'll give him a call to let him know the bad news about his not-retirement. He's pretty busy these days so I might not be able to reach him!

[daylatedollarshort]

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Originally Posted by jetpack One thing I get from the PET STORE for human consumption is fish Antibiotics. It's actually the same exact pills that are sold by perscription, it's just relabled for fish use. Fish Antibiotics | Preparedness Pro

Interesting idea. I am going to check that out.

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort I think it gets back to Gumby's list of questions - http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...ire-69999.html For people who can't pass this list of questions for themselves and dependents, I would say they don't have enough money to be voluntarily retired. It is tough to really have enough to retire extremely early in the U.S. with the double whammy of a lack of a cohesive social services safety net combined with super high prices for LTC, dental and medical expenses. It doesn't matter if they ride their bikes to the grocery store store in the rain and make their own yogurt to save 50 cents an hour. A person can't count on living on $15K a year forever if even under the ACA plans if their out of pocket max and out of network costs can run $20K or more a person per year in the event of a serious illness or accident.

We'll be applying for a policy on the exchange in a year or two. I just pulled up the plan we would likely select based on our family and income. $700 per year premiums. Household $2800 max out of pocket for out of network care (half that if in network). Copays between $5-15 for primary/specialist/urgent care. $100 emergency room copay.

Based on my analysis, we won't be facing "$20k" per year per person any time soon. YMMV of course, since our AGI will be just a bit above the FPL while the kids are in the house.

[Bestwifeever]

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Originally Posted by jetpack One thing I get from the PET STORE for human consumption is fish Antibiotics. It's actually the same exact pills that are sold by perscription, it's just relabled for fish use. Fish Antibiotics | Preparedness Pro

Isn't it hard for fish to swallow those pills?

One set of my grandparents retired at 55 with granddaddy's fed pension and neither worked again. One set were hardscrabble farmers, carpenter, seamstress, and live-in housekeeper for an elderly gentleman. That granddaddy had a stroke at 66 but grandma kept doing alterations and taking care of Edward. She also had some most entertaining dementia later. Good times. I know they felt retiring was something only rich people did. Reading these posts, I think she was right.

[daylatedollarshort]

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Originally Posted by FUEGO We'll be applying for a policy on the exchange in a year or two. I just pulled up the plan we would likely select based on our family and income. $700 per year premiums. Household $2800 max out of pocket for out of network care (half that if in network). Copays between $5-15 for primary/specialist/urgent care. $100 emergency room copay. Based on my analysis, we won't be facing "$20k" per year per person any time soon. YMMV of course, since our AGI will be just a bit above the FPL while the kids are in the house.

I don't know the ACA policy costs in every state for every income level, and my comments were not directed particularly at you. If you have these costs and braces, college, car insurance for teenagers, a new roof and LTC covered, and everything else in Gumby's post covered, then good for you.

However, are you sure you have a limit on out of network costs on an ACA plan?

Tips For New Obamacare Coverage: Stay In Network, Avoid Out-Of-Pocket Costs - Kaiser Health News

Being able to pay out of network for a top specialist (someone who has done 1,000 of a specific, unique operation vs. 3 a year), plus random out of network hospital costs you can't control (at otherwise in network hospitals) and possibly travel can really add up. We would have paid $20K or so still for medical expenses we incurred last year even under our new ACA plan, not including premiums.

[NW-Bound]

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Originally Posted by Bestwifeever Isn't it hard for fish to swallow those pills?

Not this fish.



Sorry, I could not resist. We shall now return to the regular programming of the definition of "retirement". Or was it frugality, pet food for human consumption, and now pet medicine? All of the above?

By the way, I recently was prescribed Amoxicillin for an ear infection, and the side effect is... Well, it's TMI...

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort I don't know the ACA policy costs in every state for every income level, and my comments were not directed particularly at you. If you have these costs and braces, college, car insurance for teenagers, a new roof and LTC covered, and everything else in Gumby's post covered, then good for you. However, are you sure you have a limit on out of network costs on an ACA plan? Tips For New Obamacare Coverage: Stay In Network, Avoid Out-Of-Pocket Costs - Kaiser Health News Being able to pay out of network for a top specialist (someone who has done 1,000 of a specific, unique operation vs. 3 a year), plus random out of network hospital costs you can't control (at otherwise in network hospitals) and possibly travel can really add up. We would have paid $20K or so still for medical expenses we incurred last year even under our new ACA plan, not including premiums.

Good point. It appears "balance billing" from out of network providers won't be covered by any insurance policy's out of pocket max. Was that your experience, too?

At some point it comes down to managing costs and the trade offs of visiting an out of network vs in network doctor/facility. Do I pay $20k extra for a 2% better outcome (or is it 10% better outcome?)? We are in luck to have great med schools and hospitals nearby (Duke and UNC), and they tend to be in network although I have heard of out of network providers for certain specialties (a rare type of cancer for example).

I don't know if it really makes sense for us to work 10 years longer to save up enough to cover an extra $20k per year of possible medical expenses at some point in the future. I'll just play the odds on this one and hope we get merely ordinary serious maladies that don't require expensive out of network care and/or make do with what we have in network.

[CaliforniaMan]

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Originally Posted by CaliforniaMan +1 I saw his blog some time ago and was thinking exactly the same thing. I quit my job at 32 or 33 to start my consulting business, like you I set my own hours and worked at home for the most part. I was self employed, not retired! ...

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Originally Posted by scrabbler1 (Emphasis mine.) I agree with you. Sorry, but I do not consider living off the work of one's spouse something which fits my definition of FI or retirement. A SAHD is no more retired than a SAHM if the spouse is working.

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Originally Posted by aim-high I don't think it's so important at all. I raised the fuss here because it gets lots of search activity and pays well because there's a lot of money in managing or telling other people how to manage their money. Some of us are rubbed a little wrong by that, especially when their creds are questionable.

Of course if I were in his position I would not consider myself retired, I would be proud to be self-employed and managing finances to give me maximum time to be with my family and to do the things I wanted when I wanted to do them. That is indeed something to be proud of. On the other hand, many of us tried to accomplish this too, I was self employed in my early 30s and lived relatively frugally. Retired? that would have been laughable.

Retirement has various meanings, if you are an athlete you can retire from your sport after an injury at 30, you can retire from the military after 20 years, you can retire on a pension or you can retire after you have accumulated enough so you can live off your assets. So there are many meanings. But I agree with you, using the word as a marketing ploy is something else indeed.

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Originally Posted by haha Goodness people, don't we know by now that anything means whatever it's author intends it to mean, ie. if it gets the effect he is after, that is all that matters. I am a superhero, I am retired, I am a master of the universe. If I say so, it must be true, and if you see it differently and express that, you must be one of those new fangled haters. Itself a newfangled term that intends to shut up anyone who still has the outdated habit of using external, historically accepted definitions. Naughty, naughty! Ha

And Ha, I have read many of your posts and have no doubt that you are a superhero, but master of the universe may be a little bit of a stretch!

Words do have meanings, they cannot mean anything we want, but of course that is what marketing tries to do isn't it?

Can you retire right out of college? You can travel the world, picking up jobs from place to place and as long as you don't hurt anyone else it is of course fine. I have seen some use that word, it used to be called being a hobo. In my travels I have known people who do this, they use the retirement term only jokingly, not knowing what they will do in the future.

My mother was never employed after she was married. Was she ever retired? She would have laughed at you.

As with any complex human condition, there are areas of white, and black, but mostly grays, and that is what we have with this word and this lifestyle.

I just ask myself this. Would I consider myself retired in this situation? I am old fashioned I guess, but words do have meanings. On the other hand meanings do change. Maybe we are in the midst of that change with the word retirement now.

It is only important to get a little joy out of life for ourselves and give some joy to others, but I do think some honesty is important too.

[aja8888]

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Originally Posted by NW-Bound Not this fish. Sorry, I could not resist. We shall now return to the regular programming of the definition of "retirement". Or was it frugality, pet food for human consumption, and now pet medicine? All of the above? By the way, I recently was prescribed Amoxicillin for an ear infection, and the side effect is... Well, it's TMI...

Cat food.............

Oh, to get a fish to swallow a pill, put it inside a worm.

[daylatedollarshort]

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Originally Posted by FUEGO Good point. It appears "balance billing" from out of network providers won't be covered by any insurance policy's out of pocket max. Was that your experience, too? At some point it comes down to managing costs and the trade offs of visiting an out of network vs in network doctor/facility. Do I pay $20k extra for a 2% better outcome (or is it 10% better outcome?)? We are in luck to have great med schools and hospitals nearby (Duke and UNC), and they tend to be in network although I have heard of out of network providers for certain specialties (a rare type of cancer for example). I don't know if it really makes sense for us to work 10 years longer to save up enough to cover an extra $20k per year of possible medical expenses at some point in the future. I'll just play the odds on this one and hope we get merely ordinary serious maladies that don't require expensive out of network care and/or make do with what we have in network.

The issue is you can go to an in network hospital and in network doctor and but maybe all the anesthesiologist's are out of network like in this post -

Obamacare updates, anyone?

And then there are increasing health care costs as you age -

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/...dical-expenses

And LTC costs -

Long Term Care | Insurance - Consumer Reports

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by CaliforniaMan Can you retire right out of college? You can travel the world, picking up jobs from place to place and as long as you don't hurt anyone else it is of course fine. I have seen some use that word, it used to be called being a hobo. In my travels I have known people who do this, they use the retirement term only jokingly, not knowing what they will do in the future.

I wouldn't say I'm jokingly using the word retired (perhaps half-jokingly? ), but I'm receptive to other words being used to describe my situation as well since the definition seems to be a bit fuzzy (based on disparate opinions voiced in this thread from ER aficionados).

As others have pointed out, you can have multiple roles beyond "retired" (such as caregiver, hobby enthusiast, volunteer, friend, spouse, dabbler in writing/blogging).

The headline at my blog might come off as marketing glitz, but I don't hide what I'm up to or my current situation. It's just that I can't fit a whole paragraph in large font at the top of my page. I also remember something from my MBA* coursework in marketing that you sell the sizzle, not the steak, right?

From Root of Good's "About Me / I Retired at 33!" page:

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Through careful saving and planning, I managed to accumulate enough wealth to make me financially independent by age 33. I could also be variously described as unemployed, in between jobs, a stay at home dad, retired, or a kept man with a sweet sugar momma. Call me what you want! I have a lovely wife that is still working (for now) at an awesome place that is very flexible, has great benefits and pays relatively well. Easy money on good terms is hard to turn down. We live in North Carolina with our three generally wonderful children aged 2,7, and 9.

I disclose our net worth, income, and spending each month. The last few months these figures have been $1.3M, $6-8k, $2-3k, respectively.

In the About Me page, I disclose our actual incomes while working (ranging from a household income of under $100k starting out of college and topping out at $150k last year).

In other articles, I disclose our tax strategy (how we paid $150 on a $150k income). I disclose how we plan on paying almost nothing for health insurance after ACA subsidies (that article was written to answer my mom's question about ACA and subsidies for older people with no kids and higher incomes). I'm almost an open book and will disclose just about any financial details if it's something relevant to finances, FI, ER, investments, etc.



*I don't really have an MBA. I read a book called the "10 Day MBA" and that has served me well enough. Sorry if my MBA credential comes off as marketing glitz. I just thought it was funny!

[misanman]

DW really didn't like work at all and decided to "retire" at 50. She had a small pension that she couldn't draw from yet and would eventually be eligible for SS but for many years she did not make any contributions to our finances. I think saying she was "retired" felt better than saying "I'm not working" and that's okay with me, but I would have probably said "I'm not working" rather than "I'm retired" since I think that was a better characterization of our situation.

[Katsmeow]

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Originally Posted by Shawn I cannot pick and choose. Your husbands work will not change once you retire (although perhaps it will be cut in half). If I believe that your husband is a retired stay-at-home parent, then I do not see how I can avoid applying the retiree label to essentially all stay-at-home parents.

First, I think that whether someone considers themselves retired is really up to the person. There are lots of variables involved and the person involved is the one best able to say whether he or she is retired.

Part of retirement for most people I think involves being financially independent. If you have one stay at home parent and one working parent and the working parent couldn't quit because then they wouldn't have enough money, then I would not consider myself retired if I was the stay at home parent.

On the other hand, 4 years ago, my 62 year old husband retired. We had a daughter still in high school at the time. He certainly saw himself as retired. His employer gave him a retirement party after his more than 30 years at working there. While I didn't fully retire at the time (I kept working 1 day a week), financially I could have quit working at any time. The success of our retirement did not depend upon me continuing to work. Yes, we got financial benefits from that very part-time work of mine but those benefits were not essential to the success. That is a very different situation than one where you have one stay at home parent and the other parent must work so that they aren't broke.

[jclarksnakes]

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Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort Interesting idea. I am going to check that out.

While you are at the pet store buying Fish-Mox be sure to also pick up a bottle of Fish-Zol tablets. It is exactly the same as the 250mg Flagyl (Metronidazole) tablets used in human medicine to treat both gastrointestinal and blood borne parasites. The markings on the tablets are exactly the same. In a doomsday scenario the Flagyl could prove to be very useful. And, do not consume alcoholic beverages while taking the Flagyl.

My dear SIL recently told me she took a prescription for antibiotics for her dog to the Walmart pharmacy and they filled the prescription for free. I was not fully paying attention (a bad habit of mine) when she said which antibiotic it was but it probably was Amoxicillin.

[aida2003]

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Originally Posted by FUEGO In other articles, I disclose our tax strategy (how we paid $150 on a $150k income). I disclose how we plan on paying almost nothing for health insurance after ACA subsidies (that article was written to answer my mom's question about ACA and subsidies for older people with no kids and higher incomes). I'm almost an open book and will disclose just about any financial details if it's something relevant to finances, FI, ER, investments, etc.

Well, this thread turned out quite entertaining and later annoying just for a usage of correct labeling. I bet people at FDA and other labeling institutions drag time in settling down on what sorts of labels to put on various products just to clock in/out time to get paid...We've got 6 pages on the various definitions with mix-ins of tuna fish and dog/cat food, and no settling down on the 'correct' definition in sight yet. Has anyone tried to solicit help from AARP? Well, probably not due to the age...

Anyway, FUEGO, you got my attention since your family are residents of NC (living close to Raleigh, Durham probably). I'm curious about the links/articles in your quote above. You can PM them to me, so we don't distract people from more important issues here.

[aida2003]

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Originally Posted by Moemg Just to be clear I make a lot more than a few bucks on ebay . More like 5 figures a year .It does not support me but does pay for my spoiling my grandsons, contributing to their college fund and a little left over for my JJill habit .

Just curious, what kind of business? Is it the one where you browse the internet for goods that you can mark-up and sell on the Ebay w/o procuring and shipping them to your house?

[NW-Bound]

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Originally Posted by aida2003 ... I bet people at FDA and other labeling institutions drag time in settling down on what sorts of labels to put on various products just to clock in/out time to get paid...We've got 6 pages on the various definitions with mix-ins of tuna fish and dog/cat food, and no settling down on the 'correct' definition in sight yet...

Eh, the OP was about cat food supposedly eaten by an ER. It was not about the definition of ER, which not all of us care about (I mean the definition, not the ER part, which many of us are practicing, to whatever definition we find fit).

And being ERs, this is just one of the ways we spend our time. What else to do all day besides looking for sales on cat food, er, I mean canned tuna?

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by NW-Bound And being ERs, this is just one of the ways we spend our time. What else to do all day besides looking for sales on cat food, er, I mean canned tuna?

Seeing this thread reminded me that I'm about out of cat food. I hope I can wait till June when it goes on sale again.

For the cat, folks. For the cat.

Today we (humans) had Cambodian stuffed French crepes followed up with some brie and crackers. Just something quick so we don't starve you know.

[aja8888]

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Originally Posted by FUEGO Seeing this thread reminded me that I'm about out of cat food. I hope I can wait till June when it goes on sale again. For the cat, folks. For the cat. Today we (humans) had Cambodian stuffed French crepes followed up with some brie and crackers. Just something quick so we don't starve you know.

Maybe you can save a little bit of that for the cat?