Recession's Mark on Millennials

[CaptTom]

Very interesting viewpoints. Probably all valid, depending on your perspective. These are complex issues.

One thing I wanted to add was the fact that the "greatest" generation lived through one or two world wars and a great depression. It had a pretty strong effect on them for the rest of their lives. If the millennials are graduating into uncertainty, maybe it will make them "greater" too.

Maybe they'll learn to save, learn to live without an $8 latte at Starbucks every morning, learn to suck it up and do a job they might not love, just to survive. Maybe they'll look at the political (and every other) mess we've left them and find a way to do better. You never know.

I have a lot of confidence in them. Granted, you can find a lot of slackers. But among them are still some truly fine human beings. Look at the military. Many branches of which are now pretty selective. Some of those kids are top-notch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ugeauxgirl In a seminar on generational differences, they discussed the fact that the millenials (in general) are not ideal employees. They tend to be job hoppers, have poor work ethic, need lots of feedback on their job, not deal with conflict or criticism well (the trophy for showing up generation) and think that there is a job out there that they will love every aspect of. I have told more than one millenial that the job they are dreaming of is called a HOBBY. The reason an employer pays you to go to work is that its not always fun.

I also totally agree with this.

But I must point out that I'd be a job-hopper too, with the total lack of loyalty, respect, benefits, pensions and job security most companies offer their employees today.

Somehow, each generation finds a way to get by in the world. We don't have to approve.

[Amethyst]

I agree. My current supervisor is young enough to be my son but he sure has more going on, as a boss, than I did at his age. A fine young man.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptTom I have a lot of confidence in them. Granted, you can find a lot of slackers. But among them are still some truly fine human beings. Look at the military. Many branches of which are now pretty selective. Some of those kids are top-notch. .

[audreyh1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOL! The idea that college is expensive seems to come from the NorthEast media where all the journalists want to send their kids to elite private universities. A public university in Texas is about $10,000 a year (not semester!) for tuition, fees, and books. Sure, room & board adds more to the cost, but one can live pretty cheaply either at home or with lots of roommates. Life is not meant to be a cake walk.

No it doesn't. It's real. About 10 years ago I looked at the tuition at the state university where I got my degrees in the late 70s and mid 80s and I was absolutely floored at how expensive the tuition was 20 years later. Factor of 10+ as I recall.

[audreyh1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ugeauxgirl In a seminar on generational differences, they discussed the fact that the millenials (in general) are not ideal employees. They tend to be job hoppers, have poor work ethic, need lots of feedback on their job, not deal with conflict or criticism well (the trophy for showing up generation) and think that there is a job out there that they will love every aspect of. I have told more than one millenial that the job they are dreaming of is called a HOBBY. The reason an employer pays you to go to work is that its not always fun.

Job-hopping, lack of loyalty to a company. That is what companies themselves have created as they stopped being loyal to employees decades ago. I don't blame millennials for looking out for themselves. That is exactly what their employers do.

[JoeWras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptTom Maybe they'll learn to save, learn to live without an $8 latte at Starbucks every morning, learn to suck it up and do a job they might not love, just to survive.

I'm with you on this. I'm back to good old coffee after having a Starbucks habit a few years ago. LBYM and all.

But I do want to stand up for my Millennial friends. We can make fun of their Starbucks habit, but what about Boomers and Greatests? Cigarettes. About the equivalent of that expensive latte per day. The more I thought about it, the less I'm willing to throw that Latte-Stone anymore. Every generation seems to have some crazy weakness of some sort.

And it goes back. Even the American Colonists had their all-day drinking habits.

[meierlde]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOL! The idea that college is expensive seems to come from the NorthEast media where all the journalists want to send their kids to elite private universities. A public university in Texas is about $10,000 a year (not semester!) for tuition, fees, and books. Sure, room & board adds more to the cost, but one can live pretty cheaply either at home or with lots of roommates. Life is not meant to be a cake walk.

In particular with things like the texas core curriculum transfer rule (42 semester hours) a community college is still the cheapest route for the first two years. The core curriculum does ensure transfer of credits.

[Milton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 Job-hopping, lack of loyalty to a company. That is what companies themselves have created as they stopped being loyal to employees decades ago. I don't blame millennials for looking out for themselves. That is exactly what their employers do.

Agreed! Let's not harbour any illusions about 'benevolent' employers.

[Totoro]

My short view: Younger people, especially in the United States but also West-Europe are having a much tougher time than the previous generations. Globalization indeed: the tailwinds are gone for the unhappy majority.

The big winners are those elsewhere: India, China, even Africa. And the happy workers at the top end.

That trend is starting to reverse since the rest of the globe is catching up. Stuff is relocalizing.

The other trend, technology disruption, however won't let up. That 'lower end' of the labor market is never returning.

[John Galt III]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 No it doesn't. It's real. About 10 years ago I looked at the tuition at the state university where I got my degrees in the late 70s and mid 80s and I was absolutely floored at how expensive the tuition was 20 years later. Factor of 10+ as I recall.

+1. My state univ tuition (alone) for one year out-of-state was $3,150 when I attended back in the 70's. Now it is $32,xxx. Just over a ten fold increase. For one year, for tuition only. In-state tuition for one year is $17,xxx.

[Bestwifeever]

One person in the story thought getting her BA in sociology was the way to get a good job. Sure. A little cherry picking going on here.

They should compare the Millennials to the Gen Xers, not the Boomers.

[eytonxav]

I certainly feel the millennials do not have the same opportunities I had. One factor that has impacted millennials coming out of college is that it used to be quite common that corporations hired college grads and trained them on the job, but now it seems that most companies want experienced workers, no more OJT. Also, with outsourcing/globalization and green card workers, wages have deteriorated.

[harley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFW_M5 I certainly feel the millennials do not have the same opportunities I had. One factor that has impacted millennials coming out of college is that it used to be quite common that corporations hired college grads and trained them on the job, but now it seems that most companies want experienced workers, no more OJT.

+1. I've often thought that is the biggest difficulty new employees face. This has been a problem for a number of years, not just the millennials. GenX'ers faced it for sure, and whoever was before them. I used to sit in on interviews for new hires thinking "there's no way I could have gotten a job in this environment if I wasn't already here". OTJ training was an excellent way to build an employee that could function in the particular company for a long time, but that isn't what companies want anymore. The want cogs.

[CaptTom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack ... many employers can't be "loyal" to employees in same way they were when Boomers were 20-somethings. Lifetime employment and relatively generous benefits were far more common in the 70's than they are these days. Though necessary, the change in corporate culture led to much more job hopping.

I agree with all except the "necessary" part. It's pure greed and a twisted financial system that rewards a very few at the expense of many.

Case in point is the NH Demoula's dispute. To summarize, a successful supermarket chain was jointly inherited by two sides of the family, led by two individuals. One went to business school and learned all about current, cut-throat, kill-or-be-killed, screw-the-employee attitudes. The other ran the business, offering fair wages for employees, many of whom worked there for decades, and fair prices for customers, who were also extremely loyal.

Obviously there was a clash of cultures and the board tried to oust the "good guy" and make some changes to bring the chain in line with modern business practices. Spoiler alert: They lost in the end due to uprisings by customers, employees and even management.

By the way, the business was and continues to be wildly successful, making multi-millionaires out of everyone with ownership interest, with loyal customers and employees.

The greed that's baked into our system today, causing an alarming rate of income disparity, is obscene. Using "everyone is doing it" as justification for a total lack of loyalty to customers and employees is wrong.

It IS possible to treat your customers and employees fairly, and still get fabulously wealthy. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

[scrabbler1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Galt III +1. My state univ tuition (alone) for one year out-of-state was $3,150 when I attended back in the 70's. Now it is $32,xxx. Just over a ten fold increase. For one year, for tuition only. In-state tuition for one year is $17,xxx.

I did a quick comparison of my college's tuition today versus when I last attended in 1984-85. On a per-credit basis, it went from $243 to $1,334, a rise by a factor of 5.5. If you take my 1985 starting salary and increase it by a factor of 5.5, it comes out to about what I'd be making today had I kept working full-time, with all the promotions and average and above-average pay raises I received in those 23 years (plus 9 more estimated average raises). The starting salary for today's worker at my old company would not be anywhere close to what a 32-year employee would make, but that hasn't stopped the college tuition from rising at that pace. And I am not including room and board, either, which has risen by a factor of between 6 and 7. Ouch!

[HadEnuff]

It may be harder for Millennials to do as well as Boomers, but not impossible.
They may have to work harder, and say "no" more often to discretionary expenses. Some of of those discretionary expenses we just had to live without because they did not exist, like 500 channels of cable TV, or optimum cell phone/data plans, to name two.
A used car with 20 or 30K on it instead of the new Nissan Sentra I bought, but realistically, that used car may well be a better car than my new Sentra was.

There are lots of ways to economize, and some will, and some won't, (just like my fellow Boomers)....and some will thrive, and some won't. Success was not guaranteed to my parents, nor to me. My parents and I had our share of sleepless nights worrying about how things might work out.

My Mother-in-Law told me she once complained to her parents (in the mid 1950s) how hard her life was, and her mom said, "yep. I remember being poor."...End of conversation.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ugeauxgirl In a seminar on generational differences, they discussed the fact that the millenials (in general) are not ideal employees. They tend to be job hoppers, have poor work ethic, need lots of feedback on their job, not deal with conflict or criticism well (the trophy for showing up generation) and think that there is a job out there that they will love every aspect of. I have told more than one millenial that the job they are dreaming of is called a HOBBY. The reason an employer pays you to go to work is that its not always fun.

I suppose this may be true at lower skill levels, or at levels where drug use is common. But I believe that none of it is true at higher skill levels.

Developers and other high skill knowledge workers are very aware that intelligent, highly skilled local competition is only an H-1b visa away from their offices, and offshoring is always possible for the less business sensitive aspects of their work.

I have one son in millennial age bracket, and one son who manages many of this age. I have met many of them, and IMO they are a serious, well prepared, hard working and flexible group of people.

Ha

[razztazz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HadEnuff It may be harder for Millennials to do as well as Boomers, but not impossible. They may have to work harder, and say "no" more often to discretionary expenses. Some of of those discretionary expenses we just had to live without because they did not exist, like 500 channels of cable TV, or optimum cell phone/data plans, to name two. A used car with 20 or 30K on it instead of the new Nissan Sentra I bought, but realistically, that used car may well be a better car than my new Sentra was. There are lots of ways to economize, and some will, and some won't, (just like my fellow Boomers)....and some will thrive, and some won't. Success was not guaranteed to my parents, nor to me. My parents and I had our share of sleepless nights worrying about how things might work out. My Mother-in-Law told me she once complained to her parents (in the mid 1950s) how hard her life was, and her mom said, "yep. I remember being poor."...End of conversation.

This is the very definition of Lack of Progress. As far as things they can do without today ..... Adam Smith calls them necessaries. IOW if it's what's expected in society then one ought not do without them and they are considered minimums not luxuries. But sure they can do without them Like only 3 meals a day instead only 2. Or one.

[Danmar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha I have one son in millennial age bracket, and one son who manages many of this age. I have met many of them, and IMO they are a serious, well prepared, hard working and flexible group of people. Ha

Agree, my daughter is a millennial and she (and many of her friends) are at least as hard working as I was. I think they are more serious and perhaps more flexible(through necessity). I am confident in the future.

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midpack ... many employers can't be "loyal" to employees in same way they were when Boomers were 20-somethings. Lifetime employment and relatively generous benefits were far more common in the 70's than they are these days. Though necessary, the change in corporate culture led to much more job hopping. Quote: Originally Posted by CaptTom I agree with all except the "necessary" part. It's pure greed and a twisted financial system that rewards a very few at the expense of many. Case in point is the NH Demoula's dispute. To summarize, a successful supermarket chain was jointly inherited by two sides of the family, led by two individuals. One went to business school and learned all about current, cut-throat, kill-or-be-killed, screw-the-employee attitudes. The other ran the business, offering fair wages for employees, many of whom worked there for decades, and fair prices for customers, who were also extremely loyal. Obviously there was a clash of cultures and the board tried to oust the "good guy" and make some changes to bring the chain in line with modern business practices. Spoiler alert: They lost in the end due to uprisings by customers, employees and even management. By the way, the business was and continues to be wildly successful, making multi-millionaires out of everyone with ownership interest, with loyal customers and employees. The greed that's baked into our system today, causing an alarming rate of income disparity, is obscene. Using "everyone is doing it" as justification for a total lack of loyalty to customers and employees is wrong. It IS possible to treat your customers and employees fairly, and still get fabulously wealthy. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

While there are certainly examples of companies who've exhibited "pure greed and a twisted financial system" over the past 40 years, that's a sweeping generalization - largely unfair. Globalization has forced employers and employees to compete with companies all around the globe like it was never the case when I was 20-something. If it was "pure greed," why have thousands of companies gone under and millions lost their jobs? I worked for a company that often bent over backwards to make decisions favoring employees from the factory floor on up. But over my career, global competitors and consumers looking for the lowest possible prices (it's only natural) forced us to cut costs & improve productivity radically. Wages in Mexico were literally 10 cents on the dollar compared to my US employees - how's responding to that pure greed on our part?

[MRG]

I remember graduating high school and getting married in 1975, best decision I've ever made. DW made 20 cents over minimum wage, my pay was less and infrequent. We didn't have a phone or AC anywhere. Three years later we moved 1200 miles away from home so I could get better pay($5.60 hr).

We both ate liver wurst sandwiches for lunch as it was the cheapest source of nourishment we could buy. Living in KC with one vehicle without AC. Then there were those wonderful early 80s. Going to night school and working full time. Paying off school loans while still not seeing the benefits of increasing wages.

Yeah we've had it so much better.