Roth conversions

[anethum]

There are so many moving parts, and for me, they change each year. I FIRE'd 6 years ago when I was 57. The first couple of years, I mostly did LTCG harvesting in my taxable accounts @ 0% federal tax. My COBRA and then ACA premiums were reasonable and I didn't seek an ACA subsidy. Then my ACA premiums started to go up significantly, and I also was moving from LTCG harvesting to Roth conversions. For the previous 2 years, I selected a Silver plan with Cost Sharing, which limited my MAGI to 250% of the federal poverty level. I did limited Roth conversions. Then for this year, Cost Sharing was effectively killed and ACA premiums in my area increased over 70% from last year. So for this year, I will Roth convert up to 400% of the poverty level. (Also, I increased my Roth conversion in late 2017 because I didn't need to worry about qualifying for Cost Sharing in 2018) If I go over 400%, I would lose an ACA annual subsidy of about $8,000 this year. That is such a large amount in tax savings that it takes precedence over larger Roth conversions this year. BTW, this year I have a Bronze plan with a $6,550 annual deductible, and the unsubsidized premium is almost $1,400/month (just for me). I'm paying about $725/month, and the rest is covered by the ACA subsidy. Because my property tax is high and my health insurance premiums are high even with the subsidy and will be partially deductible, I'll continue to itemize deductions. (I expect to owe more in taxes under the new tax law because I'll lose part of my SALT deduction.)

Next year I'll hit Medicare age. I plan to hold off claiming Social Security and intend to increase my Roth conversions. I haven't figured out what will make sense to do next year when part of the year I'll need to pay for an ACA plan, and part of the year I'll be on Medicare.

My mom inherited my dad's IRA when he died 3 years ago. My mom is now 96, has dementia, and has had a couple of falls with fractures in the past 2 years. She now lives in her home with 24/7 nursing aides. I have POA for her finances. Since her home health care is tax deducible, I withdrew 100% of her inherited IRA last year to pay for her care, since she would not owe any income tax given her huge medical deductions. She has a COLA'd pension and Social Security, which combined, pay for about 1/3 of her annual expenses.

[SecondCor521]

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Originally Posted by Olbidness My taxes have always been dead simple so this concerns me, I'd hoped to get some direction from my CPA but I'm afraid that failed. Can you expound on the process flow of this a little more?

Sure. Here's what I do:

1. I decide what my target is. For me, I want to have an AGI under $25K in order to get an automatic zero EFC on the FAFSA. This is because I have three kids who will be in college over the next five years or so, and financial aid acts like a parallel taxation system to the federal income tax system. If my AGI were over $25K, then you can think of it as me having a marginal tax rate of over 40% on those additional dollars.

2. In December, I total up what my AGI would be without any Roth conversion. For me, this means totaling up my side gig, my taxable account dividends, my taxable accounts' interest, and any realized capital gains I might have. Say for the sake of an example that these various sources total $8K.

3. I then subtract that $8K from step 2 from the $25K target in step 1, leaving me with a target Roth conversion of $17K. In order to allow for some margin, I might then decide on $16.8K.

4. I log into Vanguard or call them and make the Roth conversion amount before 12/31. Last year I did the conversion on 12/27.

5. In December I can also fill out a proforma tax return. In my case, with a sub-$25K AGI and two dependents, my federal tax bill was zero last year (actually negative with some refundable credits).

6. If my tax bill were positive, I would subtract about $900 from my tax bill and write a check and send it to the US Treasury or IRS or whomever before January 15th of the following year as an estimated tax payment.

7. When I completed my tax form that April, I would list the payment from step 6 on line 65 of my form 1040, which would reduce my tax owing to about $900, which meets one of the three IRS safe harbor rules for avoiding underpayment penalties.

Overall, I think what is not well known but appears to be true from my reading of the IRS rules, is that one can make an estimated tax payment by 1/15 for the previous years' taxes and not owe any penalties. Technically this is the fourth quarterly estimated tax payment date, but I believe it is permitted to pay any subset of the quarterly payments - i.e., you don't have to pay something every quarter if you don't want or need to.

What also may not be clear is that, in my particular situation, I do not have any federal or state taxes withheld from any of my income sources listed in step 2 above.

I hope that answers your question. If not, feel free to ask further.

[free2020]

Roth is my favorite subject, sincere thanks to the OP for the post and the poll; It helps me a lot to fine tune my approach.

1. What pct of conventional IRA do you/will you have converted to Roth by your RMD Year?
Current mix is 75% deferred to 25% Roth; RMD is 12 years out and based on model, project the ratio to be 67% deferred to 33% Roth in 2030; Should there be a significant market dislocation in the meantime, hope to boost the Roth % higher but the primary consideration is how well my net worth grows; My model is based on not being "forced" to do an RMD larger than our needs. Charitable will go higher with better-than-projection net worth growth to stay under RMD

2. Will you/ did you continue Roth conversion after your RMD’s start?
No
3. Do you plan on converting 100% to Roth?
No

4. How old were you when you started Roth conversions?
51
5. Do you do Roth conversions every year and once per year? And pay the tax in the quarter that you convert?
No, did opportunistically with market declines; 2009-10 was the last time; Actually, cash strapped Uncle Sam allowed taxes on conversion to be paid over two years then, some of you may remember this. Thanks to the rapid market recovery in 2010-12, Mr. Market paid my Roth account back all of the taxes I paid within that 2 year time frame. .
6. Is your Roth IRA investment mix the same as in your traditional IRA?
About the same
7. To what extent was/is your decision on delaying SS based on your Roth conversion strategy?
I plan to take SS as soon as they let me. 62.
8. Do you have reasons to not do Roth conversions?
Not any more than our needs in our out years.

Since it is very difficult to model so far into the future, plan to adjust plans along the way, with some maxims like "Draw down deferred tax assets fast between now and 70"; "Live off Roth from 70 to 85" "Die penniless"; During all this any upside growth will go to charity. Also, I am not too hung up about paying more taxes for doing well. It's OK. More concerned with superior compounding; We have done well over the past decade and hope it does over the next decade as well.

[Olbidness]

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Originally Posted by SecondCor521 I hope that answers your question. If not, feel free to ask further.

What I did last year was to convert 8K from TIRA to Roth and used 2K from the TIRA to pay the tax. I'm guessing that is not optimal but the way I saw it I was going to have to pay capital gains tax on taxable assets I'd have to sell. My TIRA/401K are well into 7 figures and I don't have anywhere near enough taxable assets to cover that much conversion.

Previously when I was employed I elected to contribute to the company Roth 401K knowing full well that I was paying a higher than desirable tax rate. But the value of my non-Roth accounts was so high that I just wanted to start some diversification of the tax treatment and to get the 5 year clock started.

[SecondCor521]

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Originally Posted by Olbidness I'm guessing that is not optimal

It's really really hard to figure optimal. Each person has a different set of finances, goals, preferences, opinions, age, risk tolerance, and backup plans. Then the tax law changes every so often, and our personal situations also change every so often.

I admire the people who can dial in their taxes according to some plan. I try to do it too, but I don't figure to the N'th degree. As long as I get in the ballpark I think I will be OK financially. But there is the OCD part of me that wishes I could dial everything in perfectly.

[Ronstar]

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Originally Posted by GrayHare Since you'll pay the same tax amount later as now, why not pay later? I'd convert now only if the tax was expected to be significantly lower than later. Tax rates may go up in 2026, or they may drop more by then.

Great question. The CPA at the tax seminar that I attended has me somewhat convinced that tax rates will rise by 2026.

That said, there is a lot of great info in this thread that is giving me thought of lowering my planned conversions. But I'm 62 and have never converted anything yet. So I have some catching up to do.

[CardsFan]

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Originally Posted by Ronstar Great question. The CPA at the tax seminar that I attended has me somewhat convinced that tax rates will rise by 2026. That said, there is a lot of great info in this thread that is giving me thought of lowering my planned conversions. But I'm 62 and have never converted anything yet. So I have some catching up to do.

I think pb4uski probably knows more about his than I, but it seems the conversion within the 12% bracket is almost a no brainer. I KNOW my marginal rate will be higher at RMD time. After that, its a crapshoot.

In another thread Edit to addactually it was THIS thread) there was a question about converting AFTER RMD time. When I get there, I think this might make sense, as our RMD's will increase, and certainly when one of us goes, the other will be in a higher bracket.

[Dtail]

Quote:

Originally Posted by free2020 Roth is my favorite subject, sincere thanks to the OP for the post and the poll; It helps me a lot to fine tune my approach. 1. What pct of conventional IRA do you/will you have converted to Roth by your RMD Year? Current mix is 75% deferred to 25% Roth; RMD is 12 years out and based on model, project the ratio to be 67% deferred to 33% Roth in 2030; Should there be a significant market dislocation in the meantime, hope to boost the Roth % higher but the primary consideration is how well my net worth grows; My model is based on not being "forced" to do an RMD larger than our needs. Charitable will go higher with better-than-projection net worth growth to stay under RMD 2. Will you/ did you continue Roth conversion after your RMD’s start? No 3. Do you plan on converting 100% to Roth? No 4. How old were you when you started Roth conversions? 51 5. Do you do Roth conversions every year and once per year? And pay the tax in the quarter that you convert? No, did opportunistically with market declines; 2009-10 was the last time; Actually, cash strapped Uncle Sam allowed taxes on conversion to be paid over two years then, some of you may remember this. Thanks to the rapid market recovery in 2010-12, Mr. Market paid my Roth account back all of the taxes I paid within that 2 year time frame. . 6. Is your Roth IRA investment mix the same as in your traditional IRA? About the same 7. To what extent was/is your decision on delaying SS based on your Roth conversion strategy? I plan to take SS as soon as they let me. 62. 8. Do you have reasons to not do Roth conversions? Not any more than our needs in our out years. Since it is very difficult to model so far into the future, plan to adjust plans along the way, with some maxims like "Draw down deferred tax assets fast between now and 70"; "Live off Roth from 70 to 85" "Die penniless"; During all this any upside growth will go to charity. Also, I am not too hung up about paying more taxes for doing well. It's OK. More concerned with superior compounding; We have done well over the past decade and hope it does over the next decade as well.

One aspect of general Roth accounts usage that I am not sure has been covered heavily in these discussions is when to USE the Roth accounts. I had thought in general that calculators such as I ORP suggests to use the Roth accounts LAST of all your accounts.
Is this statement generally true, as I like your concept of not using more RMD's than what is required.

[CardsFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtail One aspect of general Roth accounts usage that I am not sure has been covered heavily in these discussions is when to USE the Roth accounts. I had thought in general that calculators such as I ORP suggests to use the Roth accounts LAST of all your accounts. Is this statement generally true, as I like your concept of not using more RMD's than what is required.

In our case, there is a high probability that we may never need the Roth account, and maybe not much of the tIRA (tho we WILL pay taxes on some at RMD time).

At RMD time we WILL pay taxes, on more money than we will need, so I see the Roth as a tax free pathway to the next generation.

YMMV

[free2020]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtail One aspect of general Roth accounts usage that I am not sure has been covered heavily in these discussions is when to USE the Roth accounts. I had thought in general that calculators such as I ORP suggests to use the Roth accounts LAST of all your accounts. Is this statement generally true, as I like your concept of not using more RMD's than what is required.

As to Roth usage, for us, with large balance now, We can afford to pull at a trickle rate between now and 70 and then heavily. This is based on dealing with what we have now and more importantly, what we currently know about tax rates. Who knows what the tax policies would be in 2030 or 2040.

As to RMD, I have built a percentage table between 70 and 115 (current IRS) into my model and that tells me what my forced withdrawal threshold would be. Besides, if any consumption is to happen would like it to be well before 75-80.😏

[Dtail]

Quote:

Originally Posted by free2020 As to Roth usage, for us, with large balance now, We can afford to pull at a trickle rate between now and 70 and then heavily. This is based on dealing with what we have now and more importantly, what we currently know about tax rates. Who knows what the tax policies would be in 2030 or 2040. As to RMD, I have built a percentage table between 70 and 115 (current IRS) into my model and that tells me what my forced withdrawal threshold would be. Besides, if any consumption is to happen would like it to be well before 75-80.😏

So conceptually, are you trying to limit your asset usage amount to the RMD forced % each year and the differences between that sum and your total needs come from the Roth account?

[free2020]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtail So conceptually, are you trying to limit your asset usage amount to the RMD forced % each year and the differences between that sum and your total needs come from the Roth account?

Sorry for being cryptic, it is more because of the lack of word choices to convey the message. Sorry for that🙏

Actually, it’s the opposite of limiting asset usage. I am forcing depletion of tax deferred asset between now and 70. Because we have too much and the RMD gun could/would be pointing at us with large forced withdrawals from age 70. Under unknown tax regimes. And food won’t taste so good with false teeth 😔

If we didn’t have enough Roth now, I wouldn’t touch it until 70. We can dip lightly into it. Compounding is great, tax free c is a rare gift from Uncle Sam.

[Rothman]

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Originally Posted by harley I've been converting to the top of the 15% bracket for years, especially after we changed our primary residence to FL (no income tax). Our income has grown significantly over the past few years, leaving me little space to convert in. I hadn't really considered converting up to the top of the 22% bracket. I don't have to deal with ACA limits or anything, so it's definitely worth considering. There are RMDs for a Roth being passed on to non-spousal heirs. They either have to take it all out before the end of the fifth year after inheriting it, or they have to start lifetime RMDs in the first year based on their life expectancy when they inherit (Term Certain Method). The old Ed Slott eternal tax free Roth plan doesn't work anymore. Having said that, having the money in a Roth is still a really good way to pass on an inheritance. That, combined with concerns that the tax brackets might increase in the future make converting up to the top of the 22% bracket attractive. That would allow me to start DWs SS and not worry about squeezing everything in under the 12% bracket anymore. Now that I probably can't itemize my way down into the bracket as far I probably won't be able to do that anyway.

Harley, I thought the old Ed Slott eternal tax free was based on you naming a very young heir and based on their life expectancy the Roth would grow faster than their required life expectancy-based withdrawals and therefore thus inheritance grew. What changed?

[harley]

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Originally Posted by Rothman Harley, I thought the old Ed Slott eternal tax free was based on you naming a very young heir and based on their life expectancy the Roth would grow faster than their required life expectancy-based withdrawals and therefore thus inheritance grew. What changed?

You know, I think you're right. The Stretch Roth IRA always had an RMD based on the beneficiary's life expectancy, which is why leaving one to a young grandchild (if reasonable) was such a good plan. I think I am confusing that with the new/proposed plan that keeps popping up where only a certain amount ($500K?) can be RMD'ed, with any additional amount having to be withdrawn before 5 years is up. They haven't passed that yet, but it keeps being proposed. If they do, then the ability for the Roth to grow faster than the RMD subtractions would probably go away, or at least be severely compromised before passing to a third generation. Sorry for the confusion.

[jimandthom]

Planning on a couple more years of conversion.


We should not have a big problem staying in the 12% bracket, until the first of us dies. It could get a bit iffy on staying in the 12% range after that, with large RMDs ( of course depending on investment results).

[GrayHare]

Similar to the Stretch IRA, I would think there are people here whose traditional tax-deferred accounts have been growing faster than they can reasonably convert the funds to Roth.

[pb4uski]

That's me. Even though I convert to the top of the 12% (formerly 15%) bracket religiously, my tax-deferred balance inn $$$$ is the same today as when I retired and even under my plan for the next 8 years still grows ... so in effect I'm converting a good part of the growth.

[Corporateburnout]

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Originally Posted by Ronstar I went to a retirement seminar and a follow up meeting with an FA with a strong tax background. The message I got was to get all portfolio $ out of our traditional IRAs as soon as possible. And pay the tax on the conversion out of $ in our taxable portfolio. So I have been running numbers. The new tax law IMO makes Roth conversions more attractive than ever. I can convert roughly $100k per year at around 22% tax which is the same tax rate on my projected year 1 RMD in 2026. Heck I can roll over $35k without leaving the 12% bracket. Unless I discover reasons to do otherwise, I'd like to minimize the total tax burden through say age 85. Questions: 1. What pct of conventional IRA do you/will you have converted to Roth by your RMD Year?Around 40%. Have been converting since we retired 4 years ago and will continue to convert to the top of the 12% bracket until RMD. 2. Will you/ did you continue Roth conversion after your RMD’s start? Possibly. Will evaluate once we're there. 3. Do you plan on converting 100% to Roth? Depending on whether we covert after RMD 4. How old were you when you started Roth conversions? 60 5. Do you do Roth conversions every year and once per year? And pay the tax in the quarter that you convert? Multiple times every year and pay quarterly estimated taxes. 6. Is your Roth IRA investment mix the same as in your traditional IRA? No. All equities in Roth. Rebalance TIRA after conversions. 7. To what extent was/is your decision on delaying SS based on your Roth conversion strategy? An important decision 8. Do you have reasons to not do Roth conversions? No. It's a no-brainer to convert to the top of the 12% bracket. I-ORP shows an increase of 8K in disposable income over no conversions (assuming future tax brackets don't change).

We have been converting to the top of 15% tax bracket and will continue to the top of the 12%.

[kaneohe]

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Originally Posted by SecondCor521 .................................................. ........ Overall, I think what is not well known but appears to be true from my reading of the IRS rules, is that one can make an estimated tax payment by 1/15 for the previous years' taxes and not owe any penalties. Technically this is the fourth quarterly estimated tax payment date, but I believe it is permitted to pay any subset of the quarterly payments - i.e., you don't have to pay something every quarter if you don't want or need to. .................................................. ...............

Is this really true? Any links that say the same?

[SecondCor521]

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Originally Posted by kaneohe Is this really true? Any links that say the same?

Well, I'm not sure which parts of what I wrote that you are asking about. My understanding is based on my reading of IRS documents at http://www.irs.gov, but I can't point you to the specific ones that I read that led me to my conclusions, as it has been a while.

Before writing the above, I did check and the IRS website does show that an estimated payment made on 1/15 of any year is for the last calendar quarter of the preceding year. I also checked the instructions for Form 1040 line 65 I believe it was, which is where you put in estimated payments, and it did refer to payments made for the previous calendar year, or something like that.

As to the ability to only make one quarterly payment (and not payments for the first three quarters of the year), all I know about that is that there is an IRS approved method where you can calculate your income by quarter and your payments by quarter in order to see if you have any underpayment penalties. I believe it is Form 2210 or something like that. Anyway, I think based on that, that you can vary your quarterly estimated payments, and logically if one's income for a quarter is zero then a zero payment should be permitted. But I admit I've never actually confirmed that with the IRS; I've just done it and have not yet gotten in trouble.

And then as far as avoiding penalties, I'd look at the instructions for Line 79 of Form 1040. I believe what it will say is that one of the ways to avoid penalties is if the amount owed (Line 78) is less than $1,000. There are other ways involving percentages that I won't quote here, but many people use those methods.