S&P Cumulative Total Return Lags T-Bills From 1997!

haha

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This graph from John Hussman:

wmc081103a.gif


Hussman Funds - Weekly Market Comment: Value Dinosaurs - November 3, 2008

It can look like things are going very well, then the market whacks you on the head and you're back where you started, or in this case, worse off than had you stuck to very boring low return bills.

Maybe it is in value territory now.

Ha
 
Unless of course you dumped your S&P index for treasuries in Apr 07 as I did.

Not that I'm some kind of genius market timer or anything - I just fortuitously finally got nervous enough about all the doomsaying re: subprimes at the same time that I was becoming more concious of how close I was getting to my projected ER date (12/09)
 
Unless of course you dumped your S&P index for treasuries in Apr 97 as I did.

It isn't clear to me how your actions would have affected the relative perfomance of these two classes.

But anyway, good work, you da man!!!

Ha
 
Point taken.

In any case I'll probably be sticking to those "very boring low return bills" for a while yet.
 
S&P Cumulative Total Return Lags Money In Mattress From 1998!

Even better, yes?

Mattress.jpg
 
It can look like things are going very well, then the market whacks you on the head and you're back where you started, or in this case, worse off than had you stuck to very boring low return bills.

The "nice" thing about a lost decade is that we're already 10 years in to lousy equity returns. Mean reversion was working heavy against you in the late 90's, seems like it will start pulling in our direction again before too long.
 
One can pick any decade to make any particular point one wants to make about investing. Ten years isn't enough given the life expectancy of the average person to make conclusions about the desirability of any investing strategy.
 
One can pick any decade to make any particular point one wants to make about investing. Ten years isn't enough given the life expectancy of the average person to make conclusions about the desirability of any investing strategy.

I don't think anyhone was doing that. At least not I, nor Dr. Hussman. And I doubt that AL was either.

Sometiems descriptive information can be useful, or if you won't grant that, interesting. Perhaps you are a very incurious person?

Ha
 
Right. It's definitely interesting and important to realize that there are times when just having money under the mattress or in treasuries would have given you a better return for some period. This happened to me for the first time after the crash of 1987, when, IIRC, I lost all of $500 on paper!
 
Even given the bloodbaths of 2001-2003 and 2008, I'm up significantly from 1997, with a fairly diversified cadre of index funds representing equities, bonds/cash, and RE...

Knock on wood!
 
Even given the bloodbaths of 2001-2003 and 2008, I'm up significantly from 1997, with a fairly diversified cadre of index funds representing equities, bonds/cash, and RE...

Knock on wood!
Probably for a few other reasons, too: dollar cost averaging, dividend reinvestment.

Why it pays to hang tough in a take-no-prisoners market - Oct. 28, 2008
Random excerpt, which reveals that 10year returns as of mid-October were -11% without dividends, +5% with dividends. That does not include dollar cost averaging (buying in both the peaks and valleys), which would have helped you do better than 5%. This just demonstrates that investors will have much higher returns than simply looking at P1 and P2.
 
I agree that it is interesting........just not sure if it is significant.
 
I agree that it is interesting........just not sure if it is significant.

The significance to me might be, don't put money you may need in 10 years into the stock market. Although I'll admit it is a rare case.
 
I thought I could read a simple graph---maybe I am brain-dead from the stress of these past weeks (market and election), but I'm just not understanding the graph that Ha posted.

How were treasury bills giving a 50% return? Or even 20? :confused:

And doesn't the graph show that buy and hold may not be advantageous in intermediate periods of time, like ten years? If after ten years you are back to where you started (or below), how can that possibly be beating inflation or giving greater returns than fixed interest investing?
 
I thought I could read a simple graph---maybe I am brain-dead from the stress of these past weeks (market and election), but I'm just not understanding the graph that Ha posted.

How were treasury bills giving a 50% return? Or even 20? :confused:

And doesn't the graph show that buy and hold may not be advantageous in intermediate periods of time, like ten years? If after ten years you are back to where you started (or below), how can that possibly be beating inflation or giving greater returns than fixed interest investing?

Tango, the returns shown both for the 3 month bills and the S&P are cumulative over the entire 11 year period.

And yes, that is what is shown. Hussman's intent was to demonstrate that returns over a complete cycle are contingent on entry valuations. It also shows what you say- if no entry valuation discipline is practiced, then even over a period longer than a decade, you can be better off in T-bills. This without any risk adjustment!

Ha
 
Thanks, Fired@51. So as Ha mentioned in the first post, over a ten year period (and however long the market will take to recoup), the fixed income provided stability of principle and even went up 50%, correct? So, let's say stocks go up 32%, as is typical in the first year after a bear market. But that 32% isn't just 18% lower than the 50% (which would work out to about 70% with five more years, for a total 15 year period)? If the market drops further, then that 32% doesn't begin to recoup everything.

I'm confusing myself!
 
Thanks, Ha. I understand better (if only you had posted this back in 2007---think how much money you could have saved me from losing, if it had convinced me to bale out!!!!).
 
Hussman's intent was to demonstrate that returns over a complete cycle are contingent on entry valuations. Ha

Yes!

Additionally, I would like to offer some observations as follows.

1) What I see from the graph is that a person who bought and held the S&P index for 10 years ended up at the same point as if she held Treasuries through the same period. And the latter would not be so emotionally draining.

2) An accumulator who has been DCA'ing during this cycle into S&P 500 would end up losing money, compared to one who has been accumulating treasuries. I don't know how one would fare if he also accumulated into bonds during the same time.

3) One who auspiciously picked a sector that performed better than S&P 500, AND also was able to fight greed so as to get out at the top of the cycle would do very well. In the bull cycle topping out in 2000, it was the tech sector. In the more recent cycle, it was the energy and the material sectors. What is the next hot sector? I don't think any can tell, as we might not have stopped digging yet. Of course this is tough, as Malkiel and Bogle have told us that no one could do this consistently.

4) However, we could also see that if one practiced "balancing" religiously, one could beat treasuries by selling when stocks became highly valued at the top of the economic cycles. It is not possible to time the top and bottom perfectly, but it should be possible to obtain an advantage of a few percent over treasuries. If we remembered that things tend to revert to the mean and if we take the mean as treasuries, then we would sell when equities have substantially outperformed treasuries. Sadly, we tended to think that good times roll on forever, hence might not rebalance to cash in 2007. Could we have sold some stocks in 2007, not knowing about the impending credit crunch, and just from looking at this graph?

5) Looking at the graph, I can see that if the economic cycle repeats itself - at least in the near future - then this present time appears to be the period of undervaluation of equities. It would mean that this is a good entry point for stock buyers. Of course, if you are a "gloom and doomer", then this graph does not mean anything to you about the predictability of the future.

It seems Ha believes in the recurrence of the cycle, hence he recently went to the 100% equity position. The recent financial fiasco, and to some people the election outcome, might have caused some to think that an upswing is unlikely, at least in the foreseeable future. As I am prudently optimistic, I do not think the situation is hopeless, but do not want to place all my bets yet.

Hence I am slowly getting back into the market from a position of 70% cash. Very slowly.

By the way, I am not fond of either presidential candidate, so the election outcome did not concern me much. The fact that both legislative and executive branches get controlled by one party bothers me more. Still, that does not cause me to abandon hope. Not yet anyway. And then, there are always foreign markets to consider.
 
Thanks, Ha. I understand better (if only you had posted this back in 2007---think how much money you could have saved me from losing, if it had convinced me to bale out!!!!).

This is more of a "how it turned out" graph, than something to help us plan strategy. In ealy summer of 2007, it might have looked like stocks were the obvious answer.

In any case, I sold some but not by any means all in 2007 and early 2008, but reinvested too early when I thought that bargains were to be had.

Perhaps they were, but the bargains are better now! (Or not, depending on how things work out. :) )

One thing certain, the only way to absolutely cut down on your loss potential in a big downdraft is to have a good sized short to intermediate term, high quality, fixed allocation.

Ha
 
Hmmm - I retired 1993 before your chart starts and my 60/40ish balanced index tripled and then some over the period - I don't think rebalancing is that good and I did take erratic amounts out after 2005.

Man - now you have me really scratching my head.?

heh heh heh - :cool:
 

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