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01-24-2013, 09:59 AM
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#1
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 74
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SS Means Testing
Newbie question here: what constitutes the "means" that might/probably will be tested? Don't want to start an argument about whether it will or won't be; just a likely definition please.
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01-24-2013, 10:11 AM
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#2
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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IF it does happen, probably something similar to the current Medicare system.
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Numbers is hard
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01-24-2013, 10:18 AM
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#3
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,563
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I am guessing it will be income based at least for many years at the start.
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01-24-2013, 10:33 AM
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#4
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
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I consider SS to already be means tested. They do so through the "bend points" of calculating your PIA.
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01-24-2013, 10:41 AM
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#5
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 74
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Rephrasing my question - How will means be determined? Investments (IRAs, 401Ks..), income from investments, property, net worth, etc?
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01-24-2013, 10:43 AM
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#6
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Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 14,171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tessaduncan
Rephrasing my question - How will means be determined? Investments (IRAs, 401Ks..), income from investments, property, net worth, etc?
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That's the big question...
Since it's not a for sure thing... and congress can't agree on anything, including where the bathroom is, I don't think anyone can tell you details of what *might*, someday, be implemented.
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01-24-2013, 10:59 AM
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#7
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tessaduncan
Rephrasing my question - How will means be determined? Investments (IRAs, 401Ks..), income from investments, property, net worth, etc?
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If, and as others have pointed out, that is a very big IF, it is done similar to Medicare it will be based on your Modified Adjusted Gross Income ( MAGI).
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Numbers is hard
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01-24-2013, 11:16 AM
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#8
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: The Bay Area
Posts: 2,736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronocnikral
I consider SS to already be means tested. They do so through the "bend points" of calculating your PIA.
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+1
There are multiple articles about how SS is already means tested; here's one below.
?Means testing? to bolster Social Security? It?s already happening. - Washington Post
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You may be whatever you resolve to be.
100% x 10% > 10% x 100%
Small pensions & SS cover essentials
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01-24-2013, 11:20 AM
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#9
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
If, and as others have pointed out, that is a very big IF, it is done similar to Medicare it will be based on your Modified Adjusted Gross Income ( MAGI).
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+1 on how they would do it if it every happens....
This is the only way that they can get your numbers on an easily reportable basis that already is in place... I do not see them inventing another wheel when they already have one that can be used...
I also agree that it is already means tested as other have said... plus that it is already included in taxable income if your income is high enough...
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01-24-2013, 11:22 AM
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#10
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tessaduncan
/snip/Don't want to start an argument about whether it will or won't be; just a likely definition please.
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Good luck with that....
I see Porky at the end of this one...
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01-24-2013, 11:39 AM
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#11
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 74
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Hmmm. So a possible shelter would be a second (or more) home rather than investments that throw off income? Assuming one didn't need the income to eat
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01-24-2013, 12:13 PM
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#12
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronocnikral
I consider SS to already be means tested. They do so through the "bend points" of calculating your PIA.
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And those bend points are pretty acute. I also consider that because all of SS is tax free for people with lower incomes and up to 85% of it is taxed for people who have other income is a form of means testing.
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01-24-2013, 12:17 PM
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#13
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
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Maybe yes, maybe no. At this time I would not purchase a second home even remotely hoping that it could save me some money on as yet unknown future means testing.
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01-24-2013, 12:19 PM
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#14
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,525
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There are very few countries that tax net worth, probably because it's hard to calculate and some components of net worth may be easy to hide. As indicated the mechanism for means testing SS based on income is already in place and making it more severe will be relatively easy (assuming our congress folk can find the bathroom)
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01-24-2013, 12:51 PM
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#15
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tessaduncan
Newbie question here: what constitutes the "means" that might/probably will be tested? Don't want to start an argument about whether it will or won't be; just a likely definition please.
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The correct answer is "Nobody knows".
"Means" would be defined by whatever law is passed. No law means no definition.
At this point hardly any Congress people are willing to go on record with an actual bill that states exactly what they would include or exclude.
Here's a rare exception:
GOP senators: Raise retirement age, 'means test' Social Security - First Read
As others have mentioned, there are practical problems with how to prevent people from hiding assets/income, and how to keep compliance costs down. So we can make some generalized guesses, but that's it.
If you're asking for detail like, "Would they exclude Roth IRA withdrawals while including traditional IRA withdrawals?", I don't think you're going to find it.
(and, note that we already have means testing both in the bend points in the benefit formula and in the rules for FIT)
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01-24-2013, 01:02 PM
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#16
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,629
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I did a little more research. The SS actuaries have scored multiple proposals for changing SS. I could only find one that looks like "standard" means testing
Quote:
Reduce individual Social Security benefits if modified adjusted gross income, or MAGI (AGI less taxable Social Security benefits plus nontaxable interest income) is above $60,000 for single taxpayers or $120,000 for taxpayers filing jointly. This provision is effective for individuals newly eligible for benefits in 2019 or later. The percentage reduction increases linearly up to 50 percent for single/joint filers with MAGI of $180,000/$360,000 or above. Index the MAGI thresholds for years after 2019, based on changes in the average wage index (AWI).
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I read this as no impact on a couple with a MAGI of $120k, and a 50% reduction for a couple with a MAGI of $360k.
They probably looked at this because some Congress person asked for this specific calculation. As it happens, this reduces SS benefit costs by about 0.33% of covered payroll in 2038.
Long Range Solvency Provisions
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01-24-2013, 01:09 PM
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#17
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 14,183
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"I'm a man of means by no means..."
Roger Miller
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Have Funds, Will Retire
...not doing anything of true substance...
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01-24-2013, 01:20 PM
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#18
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huston55
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Thanks for that link!!!!
Partly for reasons mentiioned in this article I think more & more folks will be chosing to NOT w#rk beyond FRA. At least not beyond their 1st meeting with their tax preparer when they realize how little net of their earnings they actually get to keep.
Being >10yrs from SS FRA, I fully expect to get little or nothing from SS. When DW & I had formal financial plan done earlier this yr we had them run projections on that basis. IMHO Eventual "Means Testing" of SS will bite hard into folks who would never consider themselves "rich". If I'm wrong, I'll consider SS a windfall & have a bigger beer fund
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01-24-2013, 01:29 PM
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#19
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 648
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I keep forgetting to include SS in my equation... whatever I get will be a pleasant surprise.
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01-24-2013, 01:39 PM
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#20
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 576
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It seems mean to means test.
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