Tell me if you think this is milking the Social Security System?

[wcv56]

Kind of funny how government employees have their own system and do not pay into social security. I know and have known plenty
that get SSI in their young ages 20's 30's and 40's
that work under the table or can do anything but work.
But oh boy when the play is done how their aliment seems to hurt so much. By the way I have paid in for over 30 years and will consider getting half of what they are telling me I will get be amazing.

 

[youbet]

Kind of funny how government employees have their own system and do not pay into social security.

This has changed somewhat and many public sector employees now do participate in SS.......although most had to be dragged in kicking and screaming.

Still, you have a good point. Why is it that those who could wiggle out of the system generally choose to do so?

My favorites are public sector employees who whine about the GPO and WEP provisions of SS.

 

[armor99]

I'm just curious, as you raise the issue about people perhaps taking your property, with the Government (through its taxing powers) as an intermediate: do you feel the same way about federal deposit insurance or retirement pension insurance?

Hi Chris... Yes I do feel the same way. In general I am against anyone, private citizen or government, claiming that they have a RIGHT to my money or property, or time. I do not believe in the "public good", I believe in "my good". I contribute now, and have in the past to charitable organizations. I have no problem doing this, and I think that "giving back" when you wish to do so is a great thing to be doing. But to be commanded by any government agency or private citizen that I must surrender (money, property,time) just because someone else needs it more, I find to be intolerable.
On the other hand true "taxes" I view a bit differently. For example, I cannot (nor most people) can protect themselves from violence 24/7. That is why some of my tax money goes to the military and to the police to protect me from those threats. Like almost anyone (except the Amish maybe) I need to use the roads to get to work every day. So some of my tax money goes to that. However if the govt creates a tax that I can never benifit from in any way, I view that as theft. When the govt takes my money and re-distributes it to any other person or group, how can that possbily help me in any way? It enriches their lives at the expense of my own. This is why socialism always fails wherever it is attempted, eventually you always wind up with only a few producers, and very many consumers. Such a system will eventually go bankrupt, such as the current social security system we have now.

 

[haha]

This is why socialism always fails wherever it is attempted, eventually you always wind up with only a few producers, and very many consumers. Such a system will eventually go bankrupt, such as the current social security system we have now.

This is an odd statement. No one who hasn't contributed to SS will get payments, except married homemakers who don't have their own accounts.

Although there are valid criticisms of SS- such that it weakens extended families, I can't see how your complaint addresses any real flaw in social security.

It may be that over time SS has become less generous, but OTOH life spans have greatly increased too, giving a much longer draw time.

For ERs especially, SS is seems like a reasonable deal as it now stands.

Ha

 

[ChrisC]

So Armor, just so I understand you correctly, you're not in favor of federal deposit insurance, which insures depositors up to certain specified levels, when an insured institution fails and cannot honor its commitment to depositors. And you would still be inclined not to favor federal deposit insurance despite the fact that this insurance promotes confidence in the national banking system and cannot be seriously privatized. The vicars of banking capitalism in our society appear to support this system. Is that your final answer?

And let me get this straight as well. You're not in favor of pension retirement insurance. So, when companies can't fund their pension liabilities -- it's tough luck for all those who have pensions at these companies; the individuals holding pensions just become claimants in bankruptcy proceedings, going after the insolvent debtor. These claimants might become poor and destitute, so be it, and in your view social security shouldn't be there to support them.

Do I have it straight?

 

[Martha]

Hi Chris... Yes I do feel the same way. In general I am against anyone, private citizen or government, claiming that they have a RIGHT to my money or property, or time. I do not believe in the "public good", I believe in "my good". I contribute now, and have in the past to charitable organizations. I have no problem doing this, and I think that "giving back" when you wish to do so is a great thing to be doing. But to be commanded by any government agency or private citizen that I must surrender (money, property,time) just because someone else needs it more, I find to be intolerable.
On the other hand true "taxes" I view a bit differently. For example, I cannot (nor most people) can protect themselves from violence 24/7. That is why some of my tax money goes to the military and to the police to protect me from those threats. Like almost anyone (except the Amish maybe) I need to use the roads to get to work every day. So some of my tax money goes to that. However if the govt creates a tax that I can never benifit from in any way, I view that as theft. When the govt takes my money and re-distributes it to any other person or group, how can that possbily help me in any way? It enriches their lives at the expense of my own. This is why socialism always fails wherever it is attempted, eventually you always wind up with only a few producers, and very many consumers. Such a system will eventually go bankrupt, such as the current social security system we have now.

I don't buy the "moral hazard" argument as leading to the decline of society. The most advanced nations have safety nets. I believe in safety nets because it is the right thing to do and our world is the better for it.

It is no more theft than is my tax dollars paying for the war in Iraq is theft. I don't agree with the war, but I am part of a social contract that requires me to contribute.

Safety nets could personally benefit you. Say your child is born totally disabled. A safety net will see she is cared for after you are gone. SSI will cover her medical care when you cannot. Your elderly parents may depend on social security and medicare. You may not be able to care for them all.

I recently read an article, I wish I could find it, that people are somewhat programed to believe what armor believes. When people first were together in groups it was vital for all to pull their weight because survival depended on it. So, there was a real worry about someone getting a free ride or cheating. So punishment of perceived freeloaders evolved.

I see this tendency in many places. A law firm partner who is not perceived as pulling his weight will may be seen as a failure and be pushed to leave, even if he is profitable. The poor abused child gets plenty of sympathy until that child turns 18. Then if the child can't stand on his own two feet the child is a loser, scary, and should just get a job and straighten out his life.

Maybe this is why being charitable just won't work and we need the structure of a society to force us to be charitable. The baser human tendency may be to kick those in need out of the tribe.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Post deleted by user Masterblaster after reply was posted.

 

[Martha]

Are our taxes too high? But we have so much! I can afford health insurance. I live in a nice place that we own free and clear. I dote on our dog like she is a child. I even got to be selfish and retired early.

Maybe the tax rate isn't high enough.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Let me tell you how it will be;
There's one for you, nineteen for me.
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

Should five per cent appear too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

(if you drive a car, car - I’ll tax the street;
(if you try to sit, sit - I’ll tax your seat;
(if you get too cold, cold - I’ll tax the heat;
(if you take a walk, walk - I'll tax your feet.

Taxman!

'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

Don't ask me what I want it for, (ah-ah, mister Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more. (ah-ah, mister heath)
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

Now my advice for those who die, (taxman)
Declare the pennies on your eyes. (taxman)
'Cause I’m the taxman,
Yeah, I’m the taxman.

And you're working for no one but me.

Taxman!

 

[REWahoo]

Are our taxes too high? But we have so much! I can afford health insurance. I live in a nice place that we own free and clear. I dote on our dog like she is a child. I even got to be selfish and retired early.

Maybe the tax rate isn't high enough.

Martha, Martha, Martha. One might read that you're saying taxes should be raised until you couldn't afford health insurance, live in a nice place, dote on your dog, or retire early.

Careful what you wish for...

 

[twaddle]

I'm with Martha. Raise my taxes, but don't collect any of them till I'm dead.

 

[Martha]

Sounds fair to me, twaddle.

Hey Masterblaster--no fair, you deleted your post after I responded to it. I've got to remember to quote.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Hey Masterblaster--no fair, you deleted your post after I responded to it. I've got to remember to quote.

Well, After I posted my response about charity versus extortion tax levels, I thought it might be a little harsh. So it got deleted.

 

[Martha]

Fair enough.

 

[wcv56]

When the reward for working is the same for not working at all,
what do you think you will end up with.

 

[armor99]

Well said Wcv56. Some will see the logic and truth to what I have said, and some will refuse to see. All of my thoughts I have backed up with reason, and logical thinking. It has been combated with feelings, and talk of such things as "moral obligations" and "social contracts", neither of which I can argue against, or feel personally bound to at all. After all, I can never tell someone what they "feel" is wrong. Feelings are opinions, and not facts. In my mind the very notion of "forced charity" is against the very concept of which this country was founded on. Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness does not equate into the govt giving me anything. Just that it protects my right to go out and try to achieve as much for myself as I personally can. There is no gaurantee to succeed in America nor should there be.
Lot's of people talk about the rights of those who are "unfortunate". That they need things... and if they cannot or will not achieve these things for themselves, then others MUST provide for them. What about my rights? Why does having more than someone else nullify my right to keep what I have earned? In such a system of beliefs the less you have, the more "deserving" that you are. This is a system I do not buy into at all. I thank everyone for their time and interest in the discussion. And I really did learn a lot about how others think.

 

[Martha]

When the reward for working is the same for not working at all,
what do you think you will end up with.

But they aren't and never have been.

 

[Martha]

Well said Wcv56. Some will see the logic and truth to what I have said, and some will refuse to see. All of my thoughts I have backed up with reason, and logical thinking. It has been combated with feelings, and talk of such things as "moral obligations" and "social contracts", neither of which I can argue against, or feel personally bound to at all. After all, I can never tell someone what they "feel" is wrong. Feelings are opinions, and not facts. In my mind the very notion of "forced charity" is against the very concept of which this country was founded on. Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness does not equate into the govt giving me anything. Just that it protects my right to go out and try to achieve as much for myself as I personally can. There is no gaurantee to succeed in America nor should there be.
Lot's of people talk about the rights of those who are "unfortunate". That they need things... and if they cannot or will not achieve these things for themselves, then others MUST provide for them. What about my rights? Why does having more than someone else nullify my right to keep what I have earned? In such a system of beliefs the less you have, the more "deserving" that you are. This is a system I do not buy into at all. I thank everyone for their time and interest in the discussion. And I really did learn a lot about how others think.

I appreciate that you have kept the discussion polite. These types of discussions can easily degenerate into name calling.

Our country was founded on a number of ideals. The preamble to our Constitution reads: WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution also refers to the general welfare: The Congress shall have the Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. . .


This provides the foundation for safety net systems such as social security, medicare, and SSI.

In this country our safety nets are not based simply on having less than someone else. There must be a justifiable reason you have less. So, if you are able bodied and have no children you will not get any form of cash assistance welfare nor are you eligible for Medicaid. Being poor is not enough in itself.

These are facts.

I also have opinions and values and our country is a collection of what people value. As a whole our country values at least something of a safety net.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Armour99:

I believe that you are confused. Are you under the impression that what you earn is yours ? Per the governor of Michigan (Jennifer Granholm) and others that think like her, your money is for the public good, and not for you.

- Get with the program !

 

[MasterBlaster]

Martha:

If you want to give all (or most) of your money away to those that have less, then go for it. Just don't expect others to share your values.

There is a tyranny amoungst liberals that is not so pretty.

 

[armor99]

Armour99:

I believe that you are confused. Are you under the impression that what you earn is yours ? Per the governor of Michigan (Jennifer Granholm) and others that think like her, your money is for the public good, and not for you.

- Get with the program !

You are right masterblaster, how foolish of me. I mean why would I WANT to earn more than my neighbor? Because if I did, it would just mean I am morally obligated to give him what I just earned. After all, as long as some have more than others, the system is not fair. But I think if everyone made exactly the same amount of money, then that would be great! Think about it, no rich, no poor, everyone having medical insurance, then we could ALL be the middle class, it would be great. Hmm.. but you know there might be just a few selfish, greedy people that would want to make a little more than their neighbors. But I am sure that the government can fix that. I mean that is what the troops and police are for right? (yes... this is parody.... but parody with a point...)

 

[REWahoo]

I recommend all posters on this thread take a voluntary cooling off period. Thanks.

 

[Martha]

Masterblaster, why is this tyranny? Our country clearly values some sort of safety net. If not, we wouldn't have one. What is the ugliness in what I am saying?

 

[Martha]

Oops Wahoo! I posted before I saw your post.

 

[travelover]

I agree with Martha. There is a big difference between distributing all wealth equally (failed communist model) and giving someone a helping hand that is truly helpless - children, aged, severely disabled, mentally ill, etc. To me, that is the basis of a civilized society.