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Old 09-23-2023, 09:11 AM   #21
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Just so I understand, this is net arrivals/departures from other countries.

For example, it's not a US citizen becoming a millionaire and remaining in the US.

BUT, if that person moved to Canada, it would be a +1 for Canada and a -1 for the US.

Do I have that right?
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Old 09-23-2023, 09:20 AM   #22
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True dat



The exit tax is a biggie plus they first have to attain dual citizenship before they can renounce. (You can't be stateless)
They would still have to pay Taxes on IRA and 401k withdrawals though, I suspect.
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Old 09-23-2023, 11:58 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by sparky08 View Post
Just so I understand, this is net arrivals/departures from other countries.

For example, it's not a US citizen becoming a millionaire and remaining in the US.

BUT, if that person moved to Canada, it would be a +1 for Canada and a -1 for the US.

Do I have that right?
Yes, net migrations of HNWI of $1M or more. This is the source data of the article, which gives a little more insight into the data: LINK

The link gives some net inflows/outflows YoY for the top gainers and losers. Interesting to see the anticipated decrease in net incoming in Portugal (and the increase in the US, along with Australia --- the former might be a bit surprising). Of the losers, the outflow is increasing from China and the UK (the former unsurprising). The outflow is estimated to drop in Russia this year, but the number was so large last year.
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Old 09-23-2023, 04:37 PM   #24
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They would still have to pay Taxes on IRA and 401k withdrawals though, I suspect.
Depends on the tax treaty with the other country. As I stated above, with the UK they would pay the taxes in both countries and use foreign tax credits to offset the US taxes, so in my case I pay no US taxes on IRA withdrawals because the UK tax on them is higher. Tax treaties usually mean you pay the higher of the countries tax rates. With the UK treaty my wife and I pay zero taxes in the US, line 4b(?) shows zero so don’t even need to use foreign tax credits, and in the UK we pay tax on 85% of our SS because that is all that would be taxable in the US.
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The Migration of the World’s Millionaires in 2023
Old 09-23-2023, 09:29 PM   #25
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The Migration of the World’s Millionaires in 2023

People must be moving around for a variety of reasons, too, not just tax treatment. One probably wouldn’t move to #2 UAE or #3 Singapore to sit around the pool and drink, well, Singapore Slings. You’d go to those places to do business in a place with a light regulatory touch.

#8 France, on the other hand, is not a place one necessarily thinks of for light regulation or low taxes but would be a desirable place to move for lifestyle reasons. #7 Greece and #9 Portugal are not exactly centers of global commerce but are pleasant places to live.
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Old 09-24-2023, 02:34 AM   #26
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Just so I understand, this is net arrivals/departures from other countries.

For example, it's not a US citizen becoming a millionaire and remaining in the US.

BUT, if that person moved to Canada, it would be a +1 for Canada and a -1 for the US.

Do I have that right?
And how does that data get into the study? Who knows that a person now has a net worth of $1m, where they live and where their net worth resides?
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Old 09-24-2023, 01:29 PM   #27
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People must be moving around for a variety of reasons, too, not just tax treatment. One probably wouldn’t move to #2 UAE or #3 Singapore to sit around the pool and drink, well, Singapore Slings. You’d go to those places to do business in a place with a light regulatory touch.

#8 France, on the other hand, is not a place one necessarily thinks of for light regulation or low taxes but would be a desirable place to move for lifestyle reasons. #7 Greece and #9 Portugal are not exactly centers of global commerce but are pleasant places to live.

The full story from the company that did the original study notes that for many countries, it is political instability, corruption and/or oppression that is driving the flight of those with more means. That is why some of the countries at the top also have Golden Visa programs or easier immigration programs (like Australia).


France eliminated their wealth tax, which probably has helped. They also have entrepreneur and passive income visa programs. And for a number of countries, including the US, they do not tax passive income generated overseas nor retirement income. I believe nearly all the early retirees in France I've met likely fall in to that category.
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Old 09-24-2023, 03:15 PM   #28
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And for a number of countries, including the US, they do not tax passive income generated overseas nor retirement income.
I can say for certain that both the US and UK do tax passive income generated overseas including retirement income. In fact we have interest income generated in the UK that is free from UK tax but we have to pay US tax on it because the IRS does not accept the tax free wrapper on that income.
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Old 09-24-2023, 03:57 PM   #29
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The full story from the company that did the original study notes that for many countries, it is political instability, corruption and/or oppression that is driving the flight of those with more means. That is why some of the countries at the top also have Golden Visa programs or easier immigration programs (like Australia).


France eliminated their wealth tax, which probably has helped. They also have entrepreneur and passive income visa programs. And for a number of countries, including the US, they do not tax passive income generated overseas nor retirement income. I believe nearly all the early retirees in France I've met likely fall in to that category.
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I can say for certain that both the US and UK do tax passive income generated overseas including retirement income. In fact we have interest income generated in the UK that is free from UK tax but we have to pay US tax on it because the IRS does not accept the tax free wrapper on that income.
I am not oiseux, but I am pretty sure the antecedent of his "they" bolded above was "France."
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Old 09-24-2023, 04:33 PM   #30
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I am not oiseux, but I am pretty sure the antecedent of his "they" bolded above was "France."
I had a quick look and it appears that France also taxes foreign passive income.

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/france/...20at%2017.2%25.

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Generally, a French resident is liable to French income tax on investment income, whether from French or foreign sources. Dividend income is subject to a flat rate tax (PFU, sometimes referred to as the 'flat tax') set at 30%, including income tax at 12.8% and social surtaxes at 17.2%.


Generally, a French resident is liable to French income tax on interest income, whether from French or foreign sources. Taxable interests are subject to a flat rate tax (PFU, sometimes referred to as the 'flat tax') set at 30%, including income tax at 12.8% and social surtaxes at 17.2%.

US pensions are not taxed in France though although most pensions from other countries are.

https://sjb-global.com/taxation-of-p...e-made-simple/

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Unlike pensions from many other countries, American pensions received by retirees in France, including 401K and IRA plans, will be taxable in the United States under the France/United States double tax treaty. In France, your pension will not be taxed; however, you must still declare your US pension income on your annual French tax return.
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