Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
The Migration of the World’s Millionaires in 2023
Old 09-21-2023, 05:26 PM   #1
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Markola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 3,925
The Migration of the World’s Millionaires in 2023

I learned some things and saw some surprises in the attached Visual Capitalist article. I was surprised that India is losing wealthy people so dramatically, given their economic development. Their government has a lot of issues though. And I didn’t know Australia had become a magnet for the wealthy as it clearly has.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/map...aires-in-2023/
Markola is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-21-2023, 05:28 PM   #2
Administrator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,412
A couple of highlights or short summary would be nice
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2023, 06:06 PM   #3
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,313
Interesting, but I'd like to see the movement of those around $5MM or so. One million isn't that big a deal nowadays. Housing values contribute a big chunk of people's NW in the $1MM range and hitting that "millionaire" status isn't what it used to mean.

The $5-10MM+ crew live in an entirely different world than those in the $1MM range. Their movements should be a lot more interesting than "the millionaire next door ". Lumping them all together must skew the charts as there are likely a lot more millionaires than multi, multi millionaires.
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2023, 06:20 PM   #4
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 41
I too would like to see larger wealth cohorts, but $1 million USD globally represents a high standard of living for much of the world. So it's not a bad place to draw the line for a global map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Interesting, but I'd like to see the movement of those around $5MM or so.
Fielding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2023, 06:30 PM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Car-Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 10,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Interesting, but I'd like to see the movement of those around $5MM or so. One million isn't that big a deal nowadays. Housing values contribute a big chunk of people's NWin the $1MM range and hitting that "millionaire" status isn't what it used to mean.
That's for sure!

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Interesting, but I'd like to see the movement of those around $5MM or so. One million isn't that big a deal nowadays. Housing values contribute a big chunk of people's NWin the $1MM range and hitting that "millionaire" status isn't what it used to mean.
I hope we don't try to define what is included in NW again.
__________________
Spending my time as wisely as I can, since I don’t know what my time account balance is.
Car-Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2023, 07:11 PM   #6
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Markola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 3,925
One reason the US doesn’t lose millionaires is probably because, unlike many expats, no American can escape US taxes, no matter where they run to!
Markola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2023, 07:48 PM   #7
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Northern California
Posts: 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markola View Post
One reason the US doesn’t lose millionaires is probably because, unlike many expats, no American can escape US taxes, no matter where they run to!
They can renounce, but that would be primarily those between $1 and $2M in this chart, I would think, due to the Exit Tax. But these are net numbers, I believe. And they are way down from pre-pandemic levels.

I am speculating (with the help of Bing GPT) that the primary driver for Australia is the points-based system of immigration and many other immigration program (and a lot of the net losers are in Asia). Immigration plays a role in UAE, but I am guessing taxes are a bigger factor. The UK has seen quite an outmigration -- I'm guessing UAE (based on anecdotal evidence) and Switzerland but maybe even the US. I am not surprised to see Spain NOT on the list of incoming migration after the latest wealth tax changes. I would not be surprised to see American retirees on the list of French and Portugal incoming (those that do not renounce). Crypto may be influencing some of these locations.
oiseux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2023, 07:49 PM   #8
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markola View Post
One reason the US doesn’t lose millionaires is probably because, unlike many expats, no American can escape US taxes, no matter where they run to!
+1. That's an excellent observation. And we also have the most talented accountants on the face of the earth!
marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2023, 08:56 PM   #9
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fielding View Post
I too would like to see larger wealth cohorts, but $1 million USD globally represents a high standard of living for much of the world. So it's not a bad place to draw the line for a global map.


Exactly. That’s a boatload of money in India. You can afford full-time driver, housekeeper, security guard, gardener, chef, etc and live like a king. Americans can’t imagine the type of life people in those countries can live with a million dollars.
Letj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2023, 09:12 PM   #10
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2017ish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
...

[Some of] The $5-10MM+ crew live in an entirely different world than those in the $1MM range. Their movements should be a lot more interesting than "the millionaire next door ". Lumping them all together must skew the charts as there are likely a lot more millionaires than multi, multi millionaires.
Based upon our friends, I'd agree that as you move up the ladder, things change. Not so much (at least in their cases) how you live, but how you plan for your death and distribution of assets. (Talking about people above the present estate tax exemption for couples, so well beyond your 10mill.... But, they are US citizens, which is another issue, as others have noted.)
__________________
OMY * 3 2ish Done 7.28.17
2017ish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2023, 05:08 AM   #11
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letj View Post
Exactly. That’s a boatload of money in India. You can afford full-time driver, housekeeper, security guard, gardener, chef, etc and live like a king. Americans can’t imagine the type of life people in those countries can live with a million dollars.
Well, that's sort of my point. It's an apples to oranges comparison that again, skews the data. The study would be more relevant if it tracked first world multimillionaires instead of lumping the entire world's wealthy into one class.

As noted, a US multimillionaire has fewer tax exile options than one from many other countries so, thats another misleading data point.
marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2023, 08:14 AM   #12
Administrator
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 33,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markola View Post
One reason the US doesn’t lose millionaires is probably because, unlike many expats, no American can escape US taxes, no matter where they run to!
True dat

Quote:
Originally Posted by oiseux View Post
They can renounce, but that would be primarily those between $1 and $2M in this chart, I would think, due to the Exit Tax.
The exit tax is a biggie plus they first have to attain dual citizenship before they can renounce. (You can't be stateless)
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2023, 08:20 AM   #13
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,534
Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-Guy View Post
I hope we don't try to define what is included in NW again.
Only if we can debate when to take SS.
__________________
-Big Dawg-FI since 9/2010. Failed ER in 2015. 2/15/2023=DONE! "Blow that dough"-Robbie

" People say I'm lazy, dreaming my life away Well, they give me all kinds of advice designed to enlighten me When I tell them that I'm doing fine watching shadows on the wall "Don't you miss the big time, boy. You're no longer on the ball" -John Lennon-
Bigdawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2023, 07:04 AM   #14
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
True dat



The exit tax is a biggie plus they first have to attain dual citizenship before they can renounce. (You can't be stateless)
I have been looking into this and have come to the conclusion that those who in their childhoods had dual citizenship or triple! are the ones who will have these options at the least expensive price. For example, I spoke with a guy who is an American and Canadian citizen due to his parentage and married a German citizen. His children have US, Canadian and German citizenship or access to services each of those citizenships offer. For me to get that type of 'coverage' if you will, I would have to pay taxes across three different countries - as many on Boglehead and here have attested, the Tax treaties are tortuous especially between the US and other countries due to the US insistence on taxation of income regardless of citizen location (they probably also said on another planet!) and our tax free or deferred investment vehicle options are not considered so in their countries. One must have a lot of money to burn without jeopardizing one's lifestyle to have that type of an existence.

So, I will not be the perpetual nomad I thought and will be re-homing to the US in my retirement travels to reset clocks with regard to visa/visit time-frames. I just consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunities I have had the last few decades to live overseas on the economy for extended periods of time and travel locally.
__________________
Deserat aka Bridget
“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
deserat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2023, 07:42 AM   #15
Administrator
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 33,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by deserat View Post
I have been looking into this and have come to the conclusion that those who in their childhoods had dual citizenship or triple! are the ones who will have these options at the least expensive price. For example, I spoke with a guy who is an American and Canadian citizen due to his parentage and married a German citizen. His children have US, Canadian and German citizenship or access to services each of those citizenships offer. For me to get that type of 'coverage' if you will, I would have to pay taxes across three different countries - as many on Boglehead and here have attested, the Tax treaties are tortuous especially between the US and other countries due to the US insistence on taxation of income regardless of citizen location (they probably also said on another planet!) and our tax free or deferred investment vehicle options are not considered so in their countries. One must have a lot of money to burn without jeopardizing one's lifestyle to have that type of an existence.

So, I will not be the perpetual nomad I thought and will be re-homing to the US in my retirement travels to reset clocks with regard to visa/visit time-frames. I just consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunities I have had the last few decades to live overseas on the economy for extended periods of time and travel locally.
I'm sure there will be different situations between countries depending on tax treaties but it is not a universal situation where you pay taxes on your income from a particular country to that country. Millionaires can usually afford good tax advisors.

The US is the only country (and Eritrea) that taxes its citizens no matter where they live. I was receiving plenty of UK sourced income including pensions while living in the USA and it was all only taxable in the USA. To be tax free like this in the UK only required an HMRC tax form, sent via the IRS, to confirm I was resident there to have a zero tax code issued so no withholdings (aka PAYE in the UK) are made. Similarly, tax free distributions distributions from Roths are also tax free in the UK, although distributions from US deferred pension schemes to UK residents require foreign tax credits to equal out the taxes. (You pay UK tax first then claim that tax as a foreign tax credit on US taxes due)

I also know that my brother is in a similar situation in Australia where he receives both State and private pensions from the UK that are not taxed in the UK.
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2023, 07:57 AM   #16
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Markola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 3,925
^^^^^ I have British friends, a married couple, who work for a US company in NYC and recently earned their US citizenships. Of course, I said, “Congratulations!” but I was thinking, for tax reasons, “Now, why would you want to do that?”
Markola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2023, 07:57 AM   #17
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Long Island
Posts: 5,515
I was willing to migrate when newly married if that was what DH wanted, but now I have more attachments (children, grandchildren) and have become more of a homebody.
__________________
Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.
MarieIG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2023, 08:11 AM   #18
Administrator
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N. Yorkshire
Posts: 33,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markola View Post
^^^^^ I have British friends, a married couple, who work for a US company in NYC and recently earned their US citizenships. Of course, I said, “Congratulations!” but I was thinking, for tax reasons, “Now, why would you want to do that?”
There are many good reasons to get US citizenship if you have the chance, as we did and have no regrets, but if you are pretty sure the assignment is only temporary then definitely worth thinking twice. Most folks don't know that the US has citizenship based taxation, or what it really means.
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Enough private pension and SS income to cover all needs
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2023, 08:18 AM   #19
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: W Colorado
Posts: 474
Said it before, don't let taxes wag the dog. My time is way more valuable than to spend it on trying to save some dollars on taxes by moving to another country. You can structure your financial affairs to avoid taxes, however, tax evasion is a crime. Yes, I have looked into Canadian citizenship that could be through my dad, but it seems like more of a hassle than it would be worth.
pjm-7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2023, 08:26 AM   #20
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 22,841
I have dual citizenship, but unless things really go sideways, I will be staying in the United States.
__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
State-to-state migration patterns martyp Life after FIRE 13 01-23-2014 11:33 PM
Southern Migration Telly Other topics 9 10-30-2006 04:47 PM
8 mill US$ millionaires in the world preben FIRE and Money 15 05-03-2006 01:52 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:15 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.