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Old 08-15-2019, 01:06 PM   #161
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There are some of us doing very well (you saw that chart showing 1% making great gains) - it seems the author is looking at the middle class but many posters are saying ‘my 1% child is doing well, those who are not are just being lazy’.

On the subject of the middle class, I've been hearing about the middle class getting squeezed out for some time now. However, I remember one or two articles showing graphs, explaining that the reason the middle class is shrinking is because it's losing people at both ends...more people are dropping off at the bottom, and becoming "lower class", income-wise, but more people are rising above it and joining the upper echelons.

So, while it's not all gloom and doom, necessarily, if the middle gets stretched too far, with too many people at the extremes, that can't be good, either.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:18 PM   #162
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Luck or hard work? This topic is a perennial one on this forum, and surfaces every so often. I think it is just as popular as the paying-off-mortgage-or-not topic, or the when-to-take-SS topic.

I dunno. I am sure I got some good luck in life, which might have been canceled out by some bad luck too.

Being luck, that means it is random and I cannot change it. That leaves only hard work under my control. So, I concentrated on hard work, and did not count on luck. And that's all I can do and can say about that.


PS. I was not tall, nor handsome, nor muscular, nor super lucky. My pretty wife fell for me. I think she admired my hard work. It must be, because without hard work, I don't have nothin'.

PPS. I did not have really bad luck either. I made it to SS age, well early SS but not to 70 yet. Some unlucky folks I knew died in their 50s, never got to enjoy one day of retirement. Does lack of bad luck count the same as having good luck? Is there a neutral position on the luck scale?
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:05 PM   #163
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Luck or hard work?
I think you need both.

I am fortunate to have good health, overall
I had asthma as a kid. If I had been born a decade earlier (1950s) I might not have survived to the age of 5; or if I had been born in a third-world country.
I ended up with above-average intellect.
I worked hard, but that hard work enabled me to take on successively better jobs, at an every-increasing pay scale.
...you get the point.

In 2015, I was in Indonesia, on a small island that was half-owned by a dive resort. The other half was all local Indonesians. They were poor, and were mostly immigrants, who lived in 'pole houses' over the water. The resort provided electricity to the town. I observed some folks who appeared to be doing well financially. They owned a moped, and could afford to pay for gas. They owned a satellite dish and a TV. I watched another man, older, in a dug-out canoe/fishing boat. The engine was broken. The steering was broken. He had a snorkel mask, but only one fin. He was trying in vain to fix the boat. He probably didn't have the drive/intellect to succeed as others did, or he was injured or had an illness. If you lived on this island, it would be difficult to get to the next major island to see a doctor, if you could afford one. I watched some of the villagers work at the dive resort, making luxury cottages with the most basic of tools, and no personal protective equipment. Cutting coral for the walls with hand tools. I also watched pretty, young girls work in the restaurant. Those lucky enough to be born with beauty and some intelligence, and not become sick or injured had a much better life. My wife was happy that I experienced all this, and it has made me much more grateful for all that I have now.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:14 PM   #164
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Surely, with just a bit of reflection anyone can see how being born in the US gives one such an advantage over being born in a third-world country.

Then, count it as luck, and start working. There's no point in being envious of a descendant of Rockefeller or JP Morgan; it does not get you anywhere.

You may just get cancer and die early. Rich people suffer that fate all the time. I am sure they are willing to exchange their riches for your healthy long life.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:37 PM   #165
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Oh it's still true, at least for some. Both of my kids 34 and 36, one a Senior Director and the other about to become Director, work their butts off routinely.
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A bunch of Directors in my last workplace got together and discovered that the one thing we had in common was the willingness to work massive weekly hours (65+) at one point in our career as necessary.
Not sure this is true today as much.
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Old 08-15-2019, 02:43 PM   #166
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I think you need both.
+1

I see a lot of similarity in peoples stories. A good work ethic going back to their youth, hard work over time, and making more good decisions with money than bad ones.

My story is just as similar.

My parents were incredibly poor. We had nothing. Lived a basic living at my grandmother's, we lived on her SS check and whatever I could make.
Worked in Rural Georgia as a kid, mowed grass in my area, bailed hay in the summers, bush-hogged peoples property nearby for practically slave wages, got a part time job at the local country store. Eventually got a real job in the cotton mills at 16 years old and worked there for a couple of years. Then the military, then school again (twice). Once at 21 and again at 35 years old after having to change careers.

I had both good and bad luck along the way and not all decisions I made were good ones.

I quit High School. Bad choice.
Invested all my 401K in company stock (bad choice) only to see the company get caught falsifying their financial position. My 110K turned into 10K overnight. It never recovered.

I married someone that I saw the red flags on before I did it. (bad choice) She could spend money faster than I could make it.

Eventually divorced (good choice!) at 40 years old with 30K dollars to my name and moved into an appt.

Another few years to get out of debt. But from 43 until now, I was able to throw off all that, LBYM, and make good money choices and finally last year hit the 1M net worth at 55 years old. Along the way I married my DW who I could not imagine life without. She was in the same boat with debt and nothing saved. But together we got on the same page financially with the same goals.

So with that I would say, yes good luck and good choices. But never think a few bad decisions define you and never think its too late to start the path to at least some wealth.
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Old 08-15-2019, 03:04 PM   #167
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+1

I see a lot of similarity in peoples stories. A good work ethic going back to their youth, hard work over time, and making more good decisions with money than bad ones.

My story is just as similar.

My parents were incredibly poor. We had nothing. Lived a basic living at my grandmother's, we lived on her SS check and whatever I could make.
Worked in Rural Georgia as a kid, mowed grass in my area, bailed hay in the summers, bush-hogged peoples property nearby for practically slave wages, got a part time job at the local country store. Eventually got a real job in the cotton mills at 16 years old and worked there for a couple of years. Then the military, then school again (twice). Once at 21 and again at 35 years old after having to change careers.

I had both good and bad luck along the way and not all decisions I made were good ones.

I quit High School. Bad choice.
Invested all my 401K in company stock (bad choice) only to see the company get caught falsifying their financial position. My 110K turned into 10K overnight. It never recovered.

I married someone that I saw the red flags on before I did it. (bad choice) She could spend money faster than I could make it.
Eventually divorced (good choice!) at 40 years old with 30K dollars to my name and moved into an appt. Another few years to get out of debt. But from 43 until now, I was able to throw off all that, LBYM, and make good money choices and finally last year hit the 1M net worth at 55 years old. Along the way I married my DW who I could not imagine life without. She was in the same boat with debt and nothing saved. But together we got on the same page financially with the same goals.

So with that I would say, yes good luck and good choices. But never think a few bad decisions define you and never think its too late to start the path to at least some wealth.
Awesome story
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Old 08-15-2019, 03:10 PM   #168
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Our children and young relatives have been raised upper-middle-class.

But, the thing that is driving me nuts (and maybe it's my lower-middle-class upbringing) is watching the young millennial relatives letting opportunities pass them by.

I had some examples here, but decided that griping wouldn't accomplish anything.

I wonder if we would have done better to raise them as if we were all lower-middle-class.
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Old 08-15-2019, 03:59 PM   #169
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On the subject of the middle class, I've been hearing about the middle class getting squeezed out for some time now. However, I remember one or two articles showing graphs, explaining that the reason the middle class is shrinking is because it's losing people at both ends...more people are dropping off at the bottom, and becoming "lower class", income-wise, but more people are rising above it and joining the upper echelons.

So, while it's not all gloom and doom, necessarily, if the middle gets stretched too far, with too many people at the extremes, that can't be good, either.


The middle class and below has decreased from 80% to now about 70%. That’s good news for the 10% who moved up but the the 70% of people still there - they have been significantly impacted by college, health care, and all the other items that increase faster than “inflation”. In panther words they standard of living has continued to decrease

Remember they adjusted CPI so if meat prices go up 20% and you typically eat steak - well they model you switching to pork so the CPI may not even increase. But a person who is used to grilling steak feels the impact when they pay at the store or when they are eating their porkchop.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:03 PM   #170
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...the thing that is driving me nuts (and maybe it's my lower-middle-class upbringing) is watching the young millennial relatives letting opportunities pass them by.
I watch people all day long make bad choices.
  • Most people stick with the status quo, and do what's easiest, not what's in their best interest.
  • Look at folks who visit the doctor...probably 99% ask for medicines to solve their problem, rather than addressing the source of the problem.
  • Most folks are myopic.
  • Most folks don't plan for the distant future.
  • Most folks live in the here and now.

My wife said I shouldn't let it bother me...it's their choice. She's right. But it still bothers me!
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:51 PM   #171
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Oh it's still true, at least for some. Both of my kids 34 and 36, one a Senior Director and the other about to become Director, work their butts off routinely.
That is nice to hear and they will probably become somewhat more of the exception for future FIRE.
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Old 08-15-2019, 06:26 PM   #172
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Do people who work their butts off, grow new butts every night?
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Old 08-15-2019, 06:58 PM   #173
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Do people who work their butts off, grow new butts every night?
No, but when you get your butt chewed real good by your boss, there is less for the next time.
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:30 PM   #174
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<SNIP>

Remember they adjusted CPI so if meat prices go up 20% and you typically eat steak - well they model you switching to pork so the CPI may not even increase. But a person who is used to grilling steak feels the impact when they pay at the store or when they are eating their porkchop.
While that's true, the MND didn't wait for the gummint to adjust the CPI. The MND automatically switched to pork (or chicken or whatever.) The MND (mindset) is not to feel sorry for herself but to change the odds for herself.

By the way, it's numerically MUCH easier to to become a millionaire now than it was when many of us accomplished this feat - heh, heh, one time when inflation works in your favor, I guess. YMMV
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:46 PM   #175
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:17 PM   #176
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Parents were born/raised in low middle class in Depression (He was 1/6, she 1/13.), Dad had 8th Grade education, Mom HS grad. Got married with nothing while he was in service in WW2. He was on disability from age 57, never making more than $30K/yr even working second job. Mom worked part-time till we kids were raised & retired from a city clerk's job at 65. Now how could they have left an estate of $600K in their 80's (Which they did.)?
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:21 PM   #177
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Some things are simply more expensive. A recent Kaiser analysis found that families' health care costs have risen twice as fast as wages and three times faster than inflation over the last decade. Even for families with employer insurance premiums and out-of-pocket costs reached $7,726 in 2018.
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:29 PM   #178
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What do I think? I think the world is full of possibilities to those who want to claim it.
Life is not safe, or predictable, sanitized for your protection, or even fair as my mother used to say. However, the beauty of Capitalism, is that it is the most fair, to most people, most of the time.
Consider this. When I was in HS there were no cell phones under $1000. Now, almost anyone can afford one. Which also means that anyone has the compendium sum of human knowledge in their pocket. This is something that 50 years ago, even the wealthiest could not have. So with that much technology available to educate yourself so cheaply. What excuse would you really have to NOT try to do better for yourself?
In my opinion from what I have seen so far, is that people who are chronically poor, or chronically unemployed, are contributing greatly to their own misfortune. Good luck and bad visits us all, and yet at my poker table on more than one occasion I have seen a pair of twos defeat an ace/king.
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Old 08-15-2019, 09:31 PM   #179
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Here’s a recipe to be a millionaire:
1) Be DINKS. Of course, you can reach 1M with kids, but it just takes longer ($250K to raise a kid to age 18).
2) Work as much OT as you can when Mega Corp allows it.
3) Always max out to the company matching 401K. Free $
4) Work to pay off your mortgage in 15 years vs 30. Do smart refinancing and pay a little extra each month.
5) Cook most of your meals. Including making your morning coffees. You’ll eat much healthier and save lots of $.
6) Pay most of your expenses on your credit card, and pay the balance off each month so there is 0 interest owed. Plus, you can earn airline miles to allow for cheaper vacations.
7) Monitor and track all expenses in a spreadsheet so you know where you're spending your $; especially when you start to focus on FIRE ...FIRECALC is your friend

It worked for us. You don’t have to LBYM, you can 'Live At Your Means’ by taking advantage of the cost savings that exist in the world. And you can still have fun, take vacations, eat out every now and then, and buy some toys. Sure, we were lucky enough to go to college in the late 80s when costs were much cheaper than today, but we also worked hard and qualified for free Masters degrees and small stipends (a few years in cockroach infested cheap apartments, but worth it in the long run).
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:12 PM   #180
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Here’s a recipe to be a millionaire:
1) Be DINKS. Of course, you can reach 1M with kids, but it just takes longer ($250K to raise a kid to age 18).
It'd be interesting to know how many people have actually spent $250K to raise a kid to age 18. I've seen that figure quoted in the media often. Our 2 kids, born in the mid to late 90's, sure didn't cost us $500K. For half their lives, we didn't even have that kind of money.
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