Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-07-2021, 10:42 AM   #41
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeirce View Post
My problem with most of these exposés is that they fuzzy the line between tax avoidance and tax cheats.

You may want to change what constitutes tax avoidance, that’s all well and good, but tax avoiders are still operating within the law and don’t deserve to have their private matters exposed in the newspaper.

Actual criminal tax cheats don’t deserve any such protection.
+1. We've all seen good people following what the law allows being brandished as criminals and reputations ruined for all sorts of reasons.
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 10-07-2021, 08:33 PM   #42
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeirce View Post
My problem with most of these exposés is that they fuzzy the line between tax avoidance and tax cheats.

You may want to change what constitutes tax avoidance, that’s all well and good, but tax avoiders are still operating within the law and don’t deserve to have their private matters exposed in the newspaper.

Actual criminal tax cheats don’t deserve any such protection.
Yea, but I think it is a public service to remind John Q. Public what outrageous tax avoidance maneuvers are perfectly legal. And, that Congress has essentially de-funded the IRS so they don't have the resources to dig through layers of shell corporations and complex transactions. Instead they go after easy, low dollar stuff.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2021, 12:25 PM   #43
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 3,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by teejayevans View Post
South Dakota may save on vehicle sales tax and state income tax…but Federal is still the biggest bite. Gotta believe there are foreign residency would be less expensive.
IIRC, SD is one of the states that has eliminated the ban on perpetuities, so a trust setup there has an unlimited lifespan if the grantor wishes.

It may also be one of the few states that now allow irrevocable trusts where the grantor is also allowed to function as a trustee.

So once transferred their assets are untouchable, but unlike with a 'normal' irrevocable trust the grantor as trustee can continue to control distributions of both income & assets instead of having to appoint/employ an independent trustee who would otherwise be constrained by the written provisions in the trust.

Note the above type of irrevocable trusts are not cheap to either setup or maintain.
ncbill is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2021, 01:00 PM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncbill View Post
IIRC, SD is one of the states that has eliminated the ban on perpetuities, so a trust setup there has an unlimited lifespan if the grantor wishes.

It may also be one of the few states that now allow irrevocable trusts where the grantor is also allowed to function as a trustee.

So once transferred their assets are untouchable, but unlike with a 'normal' irrevocable trust the grantor as trustee can continue to control distributions of both income & assets instead of having to appoint/employ an independent trustee who would otherwise be constrained by the written provisions in the trust.

Note the above type of irrevocable trusts are not cheap to either setup or maintain.
Our very own Cayman Islands! Iike it!
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2021, 02:29 PM   #45
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Out-to-Lunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 2,550
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Our very own Cayman Islands!
With better cross-country skiing!
__________________
The closing years of life are like the end of a masquerade party, when the masks are dropped. -Arthur Schopenhauer, philosopher (1788-1860)
Out-to-Lunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2021, 02:30 PM   #46
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Out-to-Lunch View Post
With better cross-country skiing!
But lousy beaches.
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2021, 02:37 PM   #47
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Out-to-Lunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 2,550
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
But lousy beaches.
Yes, I decided to go for a twist! Give me the Caymans, please!
__________________
The closing years of life are like the end of a masquerade party, when the masks are dropped. -Arthur Schopenhauer, philosopher (1788-1860)
Out-to-Lunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2021, 03:23 PM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
kcowan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pacific latitude 20/49
Posts: 7,592
Send a message via Skype™ to kcowan
I investigated a few of these a few years ago and they are REALLY for are for the exceptionally rich. The costs of setting up and maintaining these legal structures is tough when compared to the "reasonable" tax rates we pay as retirees.

We have decided to continue to pay our annual tithes for being citizens. Our one dodge is to live in Mexico for 6 months and avoid the expensive food and state taxes on consumption. Mexico has IVA but the net costs are still lower by 20% per year.
__________________
For the fun of it...Keith
kcowan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Pandora Papers: It will be a bad week for international tax cheats
Old 10-08-2021, 03:52 PM   #49
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Markola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 3,274
The Pandora Papers: It will be a bad week for international tax cheats

^^^^^ Canada appreciates your patriotic act of paying your taxes to benefit the society that helped you accumulate your wealth, rather than dodging your taxes through sleazy multiple shell companies and audit-proof secret trusts.
Markola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2021, 05:46 PM   #50
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 32,246
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmpi View Post
That said, one of our major political parties (which I won't name) subscribe to the philosophy that the ends justify the means.
The sad reality is that both US major political parties believe that the end justifies the means and they act accordingly.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2021, 06:19 PM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Koolau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Leeward Oahu
Posts: 10,961
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb4uski View Post
The sad reality is that both US major political parties believe that the end justifies the means and they act accordingly.
Yeah, I've been scratching my head - trying to figure out which party we were talking about. Either/Or seems to fit. I'll say no more as YMMV.
__________________
Ko'olau's Law -

Anything which can be used can be misused. Anything which can be misused will be.
Koolau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2021, 05:48 AM   #52
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,027
Meanwhile, as we 'tsk tsk' such shenanigans, local counties are still giving heavy tax breaks to the likes of huge, wealthy companies like Amazon, Tesla et. al.

Not much different IMO.
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2021, 07:53 AM   #53
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,263
marko,

I can’t see how the two situations, purposes, or intents by those involved are alike, at all.
stephenson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2021, 09:32 AM   #54
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenson View Post
marko,

I can’t see how the two situations, purposes, or intents by those involved are alike, at all.
What I see are wealthy individuals AND corporations.

The individual is taking advantage of legal means (for the most part) to reduce his taxes. The corporation is taking advantage of legal means to reduce their taxes through tax break 'incentives'.

Bezos gets rich(er) by reducing his personal taxes whilst Amazon gets tax breaks which further enriches him. Both are at the expense of the little guy.

As this thread outlines, there are legal means to reduce one's taxes and illegal means. I'm just not eager to lump the former in with the latter. We can argue or agree on the need to change the legal means but I just don't see that happening any time soon.

Last week's 'bombshell' revelation was that Mr. Putin has put up his ex-girlfriend in a $4MM condo in Monaco. And........? I doubt he's losing sleep on that one.
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
The Pandora Papers: It will be a bad week for international tax cheats
Old 10-11-2021, 09:51 AM   #55
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Markola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 3,274
The Pandora Papers: It will be a bad week for international tax cheats

^^^^ Well, until they can be properly audited to determine whether their means are, in fact, legal or not, people or corporations setting up offshore trusts wrapped in hidden shell companies certainly deserve to be embarrassed through periodic data leaks.
Markola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2021, 09:58 AM   #56
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,263
marko,

Still not in agreement - at all.

And, don't forget the despots who are not trying to escape taxes, but are simply using these structures to steal money from their political subjects.

I would like to see teams from every country in the world meet to determine who and how this occurs - then, agree broadly to shut them down - full investigations, full and open discussion and full action to sort it all out - send some to prison, embarrass others, cause other to lose their board seats and their jobs. Along the lines of the recent effort to get agreement on an international minimum corporate tax.
stephenson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2021, 10:04 AM   #57
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markola View Post
^^^^ Well, until they can be properly audited to determine whether their means are, in fact, legal or not, people or corporations setting up offshore trusts wrapped in hidden shell companies certainly deserve to be embarrassed through periodic data leaks.
I do agree with the sentiment however 1) there's a certain 'guilty even after proven innocent' in these cases and 2) I seriously doubt there's much embarrassment on the part of those involved (see my Putin comment above).

However as Jean Rostand once quipped: "Nothing is more admirable than the fortitude with which (b)illionaires tolerate the disadvantages of their wealth"
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2021, 10:11 AM   #58
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenson View Post
marko,

Still not in agreement - at all.

And, don't forget the despots who are not trying to escape taxes, but are simply using these structures to steal money from their political subjects.

I would like to see teams from every country in the world meet to determine who and how this occurs - then, agree broadly to shut them down - full investigations, full and open discussion and full action to sort it all out - send some to prison, embarrass others, cause other to lose their board seats and their jobs. Along the lines of the recent effort to get agreement on an international minimum corporate tax.
I think you're confusing my position on legal activities and tax reduction tools and illegal ones. I'm not willing to lump Bezos and Musk into the same boat as some banana republic dictator/despot/murderer.

If you are, that's your position and I'm fine with that but we'll just have to disagree.

I think we would all like to see "...teams from every country in the world meet to determine who and how this occurs - then, agree broadly to shut them down..."; I'd like to see free ice cream for everybody every day, but I'm just trying to live in the reality I'm given.

And with that, I have some real, more serious things to do and think about today.
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
The Pandora Papers: It will be a bad week for international tax cheats
Old 10-11-2021, 12:26 PM   #59
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Markola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 3,274
The Pandora Papers: It will be a bad week for international tax cheats

Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
2) I seriously doubt there's much embarrassment on the part of those involved (see my Putin comment above). "[/I]

Putin is a unique criminal kleptocrat who is fully insulated from consequences, so he’s not a fair comparison to the run of the mill multimillionaires and billionaires whose offshore transactions should be exposed through leaks, examined by teams of experts, as is happening with the Pandora Papers, and prosecuted by their home countries for any wrong doing found. Sunlight is the best disinfectant we have.
Markola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2021, 12:26 PM   #60
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,263
Meh - I have lots of things I can think about today. and this is in the mix.

I do want to be clear - major corporations not paying sufficient taxes, robber barons not paying sufficient taxes is a major economic issue for the US - and, the world. We've done it once in the US - shut them down, hard. Trace a few decisions to illegal ones, and send them to prison.

Folks that are proud of paying no or minimum taxes? Sure, they're easy to find - they mouth off about it - research their information until we can all see what they are doing - and, how they are getting away with it.

This yahoo/cowboy tax avoidance environment needs to be squeezed - hard.

Have a great day!
stephenson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seems like everybody cheats donheff FIRE and Money 11 07-15-2011 10:48 PM
Pandora to Shut Down? Gotadimple Other topics 8 10-02-2008 10:51 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:29 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.