The value of LBYM

[joylesshusband]

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Originally Posted by SoReadyToRetire I think part of the problem is that kids today aren't taught anything in school about budgeting, etc.

Why do you shift this basic responsibility from good parenting to the schools' "inadequate" curriculum?

Have you raised kids?
Did you leave their skill development entirely to the schools?

[FLD3C]

Is the problem a lack of knowledge or a personality type that favors immediate gratification?
IMHO the high frequency of INTJ personalities here favors personality as the major factor in determining who spends and who saves.

[audreyh1]

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Originally Posted by EarlyBirdly The real problem is that these type of people are allowed to breed indiscriminately.

Well, that's how nature created us. And few nations have controls on human breeding. We've already overwhelmed the planet.

I don't sweat this issue, because apparently us LYBMer's are in the minority, and that's just how it is. You can perhaps help guide a friend or two, or a younger family member, but the general population? Forget it!

My parents were frugal and hated being in debt (mortgage OK). They had to get by on a modest salary - mostly one earner. The aversion to debt stuck with me somehow, but I know that it doesn't always stick with children of frugal parents. I'm a much bigger spender than they, but that's because I made a lot more money.

I remember one day the President of the company telling me as we walked between buildings that he loved seeing those pricey cars in the parking lot because he knew the employees would be working hard. I immediately though to myself - no way he'll or any company will ever trap me with a bunch of loan debt!!!

[audreyh1]

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Originally Posted by DatumPoint5 Answer to Audreyh1..... Yes, it is misspelled. It should have an 'F' where the 'T' is........ E.g. scha·den·freu·de See Wiki here

Just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed a new word!

[RobbieB]

I leaned nothing about home, personal or business finance in school. Nothing about budgeting either.

I learned all I needed from Pops and it was a whole 4 lines. Less than 100 words. It's not tough stuff.

[Amethyst]

When I opened my first checking account with my first full-time job after college, I only knew what to do because my Mother had explained it to me. My parents paid me a little bit for chores and yard work, and I started working part-time at 17, so I knew about saving and "budgeting" for things I wanted. But investing? That was a scary mystery, not mentioned in the home. In fact I was very impressed with my first real S.O., aged 19, because he subscribed to the WSJ and seemed to know all about the stock market. It just seemed like such arcane knowledge for a teenage boy to have.

It's odd, because I had a pretty good public school education otherwise, even in retrospect. NJ public schools even had sex education in junior high before many other U.S. school systems instituted it. I learned a lot of important stuff in 7th grade health class (age 11) that my Mother had not explained to me

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Originally Posted by RobbieB I leaned nothing about home, personal or business finance in school. Nothing about budgeting either. I learned all I needed from Pops and it was a whole 4 lines. Less than 100 words. It's not tough stuff.

[NW-Bound]

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Originally Posted by RobbieB I leaned nothing about home, personal or business finance in school. Nothing about budgeting either...

+1

In high school, I learned Physics, Chemistry, Euclidean Geometry, Analytic Geometry, History, Geography, Literature, Biology, Foreign Languages, Calculus, etc...

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... I learned all I needed from Pops and it was a whole 4 lines. Less than 100 words. It's not tough stuff.

My parents did not explicitly teach me anything about finance. I simply observed that when people ran out of money, they were in deep doo doo. And I did not want to be deep in doo doo. As simple as that.

I wish my parents were knowledgeable about investing despite being thrifty, in order to give me some tips. It was not their fault, given their background.

[gwraigty]

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Originally Posted by bobandsherry I'd say that's a bit of a stretch statement. When I went to school there was a requirement to take Consumer Economics, covered exactly same topics you mention. Checked with more recent grad from high school, past 4 years and yep, still required class. The problem is, despite offering the class kids don't think it's important and just do the minimum to pass.

We didn't have such classes offered when I went to school decades ago. Such classes weren't offered in the district my kids graduated from a few years ago, a different district than I'd attended. Obviously, some schools offer this, and good for them! Not all though.

[Jkstrudwick]

Wanting to respond to a comment that was in this string:

Neither has a good job nor any prospect for retirement in the conventional sense. They haven't had health insurance in decades.

What impresses me is the view of health and retirement by most people in this forum. “Retirement in a conventional sense” is what we are working to achieve and yet the vast majority of Americans are content to rely on SS and Medicaid and become a burden on the government and seccessive generations.

For those who have worked and saved judiciously: congratulations! Your reward will be higher taxes in retirement as your retirement savings (401 K) and SS will all be taxed as your elected representatives have determined that you have more than enough when compared to those who choose to spend now without any thought to their future.

[RxMan]

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Originally Posted by Jkstrudwick Wanting to respond to a comment that was in this string: Neither has a good job nor any prospect for retirement in the conventional sense. They haven't had health insurance in decades. What impresses me is the view of health and retirement by most people in this forum. “Retirement in a conventional sense” is what we are working to achieve and yet the vast majority of Americans are content to rely on SS and Medicaid and become a burden on the government and seccessive generations. For those who have worked and saved judiciously: congratulations! Your reward will be higher taxes in retirement as your retirement savings (401 K) and SS will all be taxed as your elected representatives have determined that you have more than enough when compared to those who choose to spend now without any thought to their future.

That’s becoming more and more common in the United States. Those that live responsibly are punished to make up for those that don’t. I’m personally doing what I can so that myself and my wife will never be a burden on society. Not everyone shares that mindset.

I didn’t have one personal finance or money class in school growing up and miraculously I learned fiscal responsibility anyway. My parents taught me and I made an effort to educate myself. It’s shocking but it works.

I think we are in a critical time in the United States because there are many people who just lack in personal responsibility. There is an expectation for a safety net from society not due to poverty or bad luck but rather a lack of being a responsible adult.

You can’t legislate away irresponsibility. But creating an environment that rewards bad behavior will result in an increase in that bad behavior. I’m just hoping that I won’t have to pay dearly in my golden years for others lack of personal responsibility.

[Perryinva]

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Originally Posted by Moemg Better to get a wake up call in your 30's than in your 50's .

You would think so, wouldn’t you. I have 3 sets of relatives that had wake up calls in their 30’s (& 40’s) and now it their 50’s they continue with denial and stupid decisions. Some people never learn. One set I know is waiting for the kids to graduate (if ever) to divorce, yet both are to blame and neither does anything to improve the situation even when told plain facts. How does one live where every bill is 2-3 months late.

One drained every retirement account and bit of savings (when he made, as he called it, “more money than I could ever spend”) to build a “dream” house that he estimated would cost him $400k and be worth $800k. And he decided that AFTER he was laid off, with the logic that once built, they’d be living for “free” and the appreciation on that house would be a higher ROR than any investment for their retirement. Now broke, with a 3/4s built house (with about $600k in to it) after over 3 years and laid off again. His retirement plan is a hoped for inheritance (of less than $100k) and SS for both.

One set has decided to retire with one disability and the other working when he finds something “that’s a good fit”, otherwise he flips on eBay. Their retirement plan is also a hoped for inheritance. I absolutely get no joy from their stupidity and in fact it actually angers me when I hear about their lives.

My own step son is a financial disaster despite seeing both of us work our whole lives often 80 hours a week, plus putting in a lot of sweat equity in houses, never a new vehicle, etc, etc. His take away from watching us LBYM and now FIRE? “Way too much work, and not enough living. I’m not going to work my life away like you two did”. He’s on his own and paycheck to paycheck and his “living” consists of video games and pot. Some people can’t be taught.

My parents were financially ignorant till the day they died. They never had a retirement savings plan besides their homes. Both sides of grand parents were savers and frugal to the max. I think the offspring rebelled against that. Never had a single Consumer class in any school. Self taught, like most here, but I think it helps a lot to have a solid base in common sense (and math).

[Cut-Throat]

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Originally Posted by RxMan That’s becoming more and more common in the United States. Those that live responsibly are punished to make up for those that don’t.........................

Of course it is becoming more common in the United States! - With the decline of real wages for the working poor over the last 30 years and the elimination of Pensions and Unions, it will only get worse.


The working poor with a couple of minimum wage jobs have more 'Personal Responsibility' than you could possibly imagine. - I have known these people and they are far from lazy.


Lots of poor people were also common in the 1930s - I believe that those people were not lacking in personal responsibility or lazy either. And guess what? Social Security was not available until 1935 and Medicaid was not on the radar. There was no safety net for the thousands in soup lines (That were provided by Al Capone in a lot of cases).


For every complex problem, there is a simple solution that won't work. This pretty much sums up your suggestion.

[Perryinva]

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Originally Posted by Walt34 That's ........ When I retired my "retirement present" was a special-ordered brand new 2003 GMC 4WD pickup that I still have, with just over 101k miles on it. If I ever do get another pickup I'll almost certainly buy a used one since at age 69 now, I probably wouldn't get my nickel's worth out of another new one.

I bought my ‘99 Dakota from a 70yo man in 2006 with 91k on it for $4k. He said the same thing but bought a new Toyota PU with the logic “My last new vehicle ever probably, so why not?” I still use it today with 175k on it. Lowest cost per year and repair wise of any vehicle I ever owned. Insurance and taxes are very low. (But I do almost all my own work. It did need the blown out rusted rear brake line runs replaced. Nasty work, so I paid the $340 to get it done. )

[karen1972]

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Originally Posted by NW-Bound +1 In high school, I learned Physics, Chemistry, Euclidean Geometry, Analytic Geometry, History, Geography, Literature, Biology, Foreign Languages, Calculus, etc... My parents did not explicitly teach me anything about finance. I simply observed that when people ran out of money, they were in deep doo doo. And I did not want to be deep in doo doo. As simple as that. I wish my parents were knowledgeable about investing despite being thrifty, in order to give me some tips. It was not their fault, given their background.

My economics teacher took 2 weeks out to teach us how to write a check, balance the checkbook, some budgeting and he taught us how to read the stock symbols in the newspaper. There was no real course material, he just walked us through things so those notes got tossed with the notebooks at the end of the year. It wasn't much but at least it was something.

My parents never owned an investment beyond their house until I was well into adulthood. I listened to talk radio, I learned most of it there. Bruce Williams taught me the basics of IRA, basic credit management, etc. Bob Brinker taught me what the govt reports meant and what to watch for. I learned how to buy a house by paying for a class thru the local district. I also learned how to swim by paying for adult classes...

I throw that last one in because it was me, seeking out info, I never expected my parents or school to teach me everything I needed to know. I think you have to be ready and willing to learn before anything sticks.

[Dtail]

My parents didn't teach me specifics, but I observed their mostly frugal lifestyle. I did practice LBYM in that was saving monies every year, but not to the extent of some posters here.

[johnhkc]

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Originally Posted by Amethyst "Your parents didn't teach you enough about handling money, and the school system certainly can't be expected to, so...your vasectomy is scheduled for Monday at 11 a.m.!" Lol

I love it! Amethyst for President, 2020!!!

[gwraigty]

Many people are more concerned with whether they can afford the monthly payments than what something actually costs them in total. I was reminded of this again yesterday when buying a new car. When we sat through the obligatory extended protections sales pitch, they emphasize how little this, that, and the other thing might raise the monthly payment. We had no intention of buying any of this, but I said straight out I wanted the total cost. When given that figure, it's mind-boggling for what you're getting, plus you're not really getting anything unless something goes wrong. Same scenario when we bought a new car in late 2017.

Disclaimer in the spirit of lessons in LBYM: Rplaced a 13 year old rusty van in 2017. Reason for buying another new car so soon yesterday - our son got his driver's license on Thurs. Yesterday's new car is the replacement for the 2012 we're giving him tomorrow. Financed both cars at favorable interest rates below current investment income yields. Can pay both off at any time, if yields become unfavorable.

[BoodaGazelle]

One thing I have learned in my 63 years is that peoples’ lifestyle appearances are often a sham. So when I see an acquaintance with an $800/month BMW lease, I now realize that his net worth may the inverse of what it appears.

[W2R]

We didn't have any classes in consumer finance in school, although my algebra teacher devoted one day of class time (plus one homework assignment) on how to balance a checkbook. Then I took Civics when I was a senior, and in that class the teacher mentioned the stock market, the Fed, and that sort of thing but she wasn't a very good teacher. My (silent) reaction was, "Oh pul-eeze!" I just wanted the school day to end so I could go surf.

My childhood and younger teen years were the days of "children should be seen and not heard", and I spent a lot of time having to sit and listen to adults without speaking, bored out of my everlovin mind. Much of what they were discussing was investing so I couldn't help but pick up a smattering of concepts like diversification and risk. We kids also had to help our parents clip bond coupons at the kitchen table although I never did quite understand what the point of that was (still don't since I have never had any individual bonds, just bond funds).

Also my parents established a savings account for me when I was seven years old. I think it only had about $5 in it but low balances like that were allowed back then. They encouraged me to save my $0.10/week allowance and deposit it. That didn't go very far with me when it was that or a comic book, but I guess I deposited a little bit anyway.

[Kwirk]

Some people are endowed to think of the future as if it were today and they make decisions with the future clearly in mind. For others the distant future is largely irrelevant to current thinking while they are more focused on immediate pleasure and social standing, or simply on survival. Many are somewhere in between and can be influenced one way or another. Unfortunately, I suspect that biology plays a large role in this orientation.

So, congratulations if you are lucky enough to be naturally forward thinking. Congratulations if you are 'persuadable' and were exposed to folks who could educate you. Enjoy your luck but avoid arrogance.