Top One Percent? Half a Percent? Tenth of a Percent?

[Totoro]

Amsterdam tourist secret weather-wise: Buienradar.nl - Buienradar.nl - Weer - Actuele neerslag, weerbericht, weersverwachting, sneeuwradar en satellietbeelden

Shows you were the current rain is, and where it will be in a few hours. We (as in - Dutch residents) use it to plan moves between locations. Map is clickable for zoom-in.

You feel like a genius walking from one museum to the next in those five dry minutes during an otherwise mega-shower.

 

[cyber888]

I guess most people here are in the upper 10% in terms of Networth.

In terms of salary, you could be making $400K but if your expensive lifestyle spends all if it, you'd still be poor.

 

[eytonxav]

Right. I think it makes more sense if the term is "happier". Rather than "happy". Happy in a absolute sense is difficult to define or measure. I agree that I would certainly be happier if the market went up rather than down. But I am going to be happy either way.

Based on the above, I think we are looking at this a little bit differently. When I speak of being happy, I am coming from the perspective of how satisfied and content a person is with their life and how they got there. I am not looking at from the perspective if the market goes up, or I can fly 1st class, or buy a Maserati as making me happier. That said, I can only relate to my own personal experiences in life and that is why I initially posed the question wondering how happy the 1%ers are vs the rest of us. Throughout my career, I have seen so many execs that became corrupted with greed, to the point of lying, cheating, stabbing others in the back and making many employees miserable just to get larger compensation payouts, bigger offices, titles, and other forms of ego gratification. Their greed never seemed to know no end. Certainly not true for all, but there have been so many to cross my path, I came to the conclusion of how can these people look themselves in the mirror. I am sure there are plenty of other examples on wall street, in TV/Film and in the sports world. I grew up in a blue color home, and we didn't have much compared to others. After serving in the military, going to college, I worked hard and progressed in my career, but I can't really say that promotions and more money changed my definition of happiness throughout my life and made me happier. Then there are those that were fortunate enough to inherit their money, and I do not begrudge anyone of that, but do they feel as fulfilled and happy with how they achieved their wealth.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

My ultimate retirement goal is to be deliriously happy without spending a lot of money. We live in the Bay Area but bought our house a long time ago, have Prop 13 for property taxes, and we're cheap dates. We're happy with hiking, biking, seat filler tickets, senior clubs, free concerts in the park, museums and Groupon type dinners out. I like being thrifty and hopefully we will have an estate to leave for the kids and our favorite charities.

 

[RobbieB]

Yeah, "happier" would be the best term.

I've always been happy ever since I was a child. I had a "leave it to beaver" childhood. I was happy in school too. And happy when I moved to CA from Detroit to start my new life with a net worth of 5 grand.

Happy now to be retired and happy to have a girlfriend.

But I can tell you that the eight hundred dollar superautomatic coffee maker makes me happier than the thirty dollar french press I was using and that new BMW R1200RT makes me smile ear to ear just looking at it. And that's not as happy as I get riding out to the sushi bar and enjoying a fifty dollar lunch.

Yeah, dough does make me happier -

 

[braumeister]

And that's not as happy as I get riding out to the sushi bar and enjoying a fifty dollar lunch.

About once a year I go to a good sushi bar and ignore the prices. You're right; it sure puts an enormous smile on my face. Sitting at the bar instead of a table, it seems the sushi chefs try harder to give you something great.

 

[marko]

I guess most people here are in the upper 10% in terms of Networth.

In terms of salary, you could be making $400K but if your expensive lifestyle spends all if it, you'd still be poor.

Ok. But there are "stealth" 1%ers who live the lifestyle of someone making $1M+ a year (and on some ledger somewhere, do) but, with the help of a few good accountants might not show up on that 1% radar.

Once folks get above a certain income level, it's really hard to nail down what they are actually taking in.

As they say: "I'm not a 1%er, I have a good accountant"

 

[audreyh1]

Amsterdam tourist secret weather-wise: Buienradar.nl - Buienradar.nl - Weer - Actuele neerslag, weerbericht, weersverwachting, sneeuwradar en satellietbeelden

Shows you were the current rain is, and where it will be in a few hours. We (as in - Dutch residents) use it to plan moves between locations. Map is clickable for zoom-in.

You feel like a genius walking from one museum to the next in those five dry minutes during an otherwise mega-shower.

LOL!

I'll have to try that on my next visit!

 

[kcowan]

LOL, I do have some vices. I love luxury hotels.

We are staying at the Casselburgh Grand Hotel in Brugge, which is a cut above our usual lodging, and it is nice. We both liked the Banks Mansion in Amsterdam better though.

 

[kcowan]

Throughout my career, I have seen so many execs that became corrupted with greed, to the point of lying, cheating, stabbing others in the back and making many employees miserable just to get larger compensation payouts, bigger offices, titles, and other forms of ego gratification. Their greed never seemed to know no end. Certainly not true for all, but there have been so many to cross my path, I came to the conclusion of how can these people look themselves in the mirror.

Yes there are people who get hooked on the chase for more money and use it as a scoreboard. But those people would never be in here because there is no money in it!

OTOH many rich people got there without those traits. Richards Branson is one example. Warren Buffet is another. I am pretty sure neither of those are hooked on the pursuit of money. What they do generates wealth incidentally.

 

[eytonxav]

Yes there are people who get hooked on the chase for more money and use it as a scoreboard. But those people would never be in here because there is no money in it!

OTOH many rich people got there without those traits. Richards Branson is one example. Warren Buffet is another. I am pretty sure neither of those are hooked on the pursuit of money. What they do generates wealth incidentally.

What is your point here:
Were you thinking I was suggesting that those types are on this forum? And, of course not everyone is a bad actor, as I said, "not true for all."

 

[Danmar]

What is your point here:
Were you thinking I was suggesting that those types are on this forum? And, of course not everyone is a bad actor, as I said, "not true for all."

I suspect he was trying to point out that your examples might not be representative. When I was working, my colleagues, many of which were extremely well compensated and very wealthy, didn't display any of the characteristics you mentioned. I don't think it is enough to say "of course not all were like this" as that suggests the majority were. In fact, in my whole career I'm not sure I ever met a person as you described. I'm sure there must be some, but surely a small percentage.

 

[MichaelB]

Throughout my career, I have seen so many execs that became corrupted with greed, to the point of lying, cheating, stabbing others in the back and making many employees miserable just to get larger compensation payouts, bigger offices, titles, and other forms of ego gratification. Their greed never seemed to know no end. Certainly not true for all, but there have been so many to cross my path

I can sure identify with that. At the executive level the peer pressure toward deep-pocketed conspicuous consumption was beyond belief, anything less was viewed with suspicion and distrust. The prize for blind execution and achievement was wealth and status, and the price for anything else was loss of job. Options, RSUs and stock were dangled just beyond reach to motivate people to really stretch the boundaries, which they did, bringing the predators to the top of the hill and pushing aside ethical and moral norms and often the legal ones as well. I witnessed Kafka's Metamorphosis firsthand. I can't say it is the norm at the top of the modern US corporate world but I suspect it is.

I also believe there was a golden era in the corporate world, mostly in the late 80's and mid-90's. Stock options moved from the tech sector to mainstream business, they were not closely monitored, their accounting was substandard, shareholders were barely made aware, and they were handed out like candy. Upper and senior management made out like bandits. Nowadays it's much more challenging, because accounting standards have toughened up, shareholders are paying attention, and stock prices do not have the upside to make options such a amazing reward.

 

[Danmar]

I can sure identify with that. At the executive level the peer pressure toward deep-pocketed conspicuous consumption was beyond belief, anything less was viewed with suspicion and distrust. The prize for blind execution and achievement was wealth and status, and the price for anything else was loss of job. Options, RSUs and stock were dangled just beyond reach to motivate people to really stretch the boundaries, which they did, bringing the predators to the top of the hill and pushing aside ethical and moral norms and often the legal ones as well. I witnessed Kafka's Metamorphosis firsthand. I can't say it is the norm at the top of the modern US corporate world but I suspect it is.

This is the exact opposite of what I experienced. I worked for the second largest company in Canada (a Bank) at a C-suite job and I can say that my colleagues were hard working, ethical, honest, team players. Otherwise would have been cause for dismissal. Extremely philanthropic as a group. I shudder to think that what you describe actually happened. Were you a member of this cohort or an observer from outside?

 

[eytonxav]

I suspect he was trying to point out that your examples might not be representative. When I was working, my colleagues, many of which were extremely well compensated and very wealthy, didn't display any of the characteristics you mentioned. I don't think it is enough to say "of course not all were like this" as that suggests the majority were. In fact, in my whole career I'm not sure I ever met a person as you described. I'm sure there must be some, but surely a small percentage.

I worked for a fortune 10 company where I witnessed this behavior first hand, and much of it occurred at sr executive levels later in my career when I had more interaction with those types. It was this sort of thing that convinced me to retire at 54. Not suggesting the majority or any particular percent of 1%ers are like that, but having lived through it myself and heard similar stories from friends in other companies, I don't think my experience was a one off. If you've never encountered such behavior, count yourself lucky.

Edit - Danmar, I hope you are not taking any of these comments personally, this is in no way aimed at you.

 

[Danmar]

I worked for a fortune 10 company where I witnessed this behavior first hand, and much of it occurred at sr executive levels later in my career when I had more interaction with those types. It was this sort of thing that convinced me to retire at 54. Not suggesting the majority or any particular percent of 1%ers are like that, but having lived through it myself and heard similar stories from friends in other companies, I don't think my experience was a one off. If you've never encountered such behavior, count yourself lucky.

Edit - Danmar, I hope you are not taking any of these comments personally, this is in no way aimed at you.

Well, I'm surprised. Didn't take it personally.

 

[ERD50]

This is the exact opposite of what I experienced. I worked for the second largest company in Canada (a Bank) at a C-suite job and I can say that my colleagues were hard working, ethical, honest, team players. Otherwise would have been cause for dismissal. Extremely philanthropic as a group. I shudder to think that what you describe actually happened. Were you a member of this cohort or an observer from outside?

I saw some of that bad behavior at MegaCorp as well. I knew some people who seemed to be fine, compassionate, empathetic people down deep, but they also had this competitive streak that seemed to drive them to do some nasty things to get a half-step ahead. A kind of schizoid thing.

And it wasn't just high level execs or a recent thing either. I recall in my first few years at MegaCorp, I went to a young aggressive production manager, and told him I had to reject some of the printed circuit boards that just came in, they were unusable. I told him I had to go through some paperwork to get that completed, and had a few other things to get to, and I would get the official memo out to him later in the day.

Weeeellllll, he didn't have any other work to do, so he went ahead and built them anyway. Back at that time, each department had their own accounting, and he got credit for building those boards. Without the official paperwork in hand, he pleaded ignorance. That cost the company a lot of money (expensive parts and labor added, and we probably couldn't return the boards to the supplier for credit at that point), and I learned not to trust him further than I could throw him. I did hear he got busted for cocaine sales/use a few years later.

In later years, accounting was different and you couldn't get away with that. But people still found ways to use the system to their advantage.

-ERD50

 

[6miths]

Definitely witnessed people pursue money at the expense or what I thought was good practice. Certainly one of the contributors to my early departure from the workplace.

 

[TimSF]

My boat is just a canoe, but I get to take it out on the gorgeous Russian River any day - and any time of day - that I want. Happiness.

 

[Done]

We over-planning types need a happiness calculator, complete with Monte Carlo simulation. SmileCalc?

Yes, dear, NOW we can retire.

 

[Music Lover]

I retired at 53 with a paid off house, no debt, and a modest COLA govt. pension (starting next year when I turn 55) that will easily cover my inexpensive lifestyle.

I may not be in the top 1% in North America, but I'm easily in the top 1% on the planet and also have things worth more than money...freedom, democracy, and civil rights. I was lucky to be born where I was and am very thankful for what I have.

 

[Zathras]

I worked for a fortune 10 company where I witnessed this behavior first hand, and much of it occurred at sr executive levels later in my career when I had more interaction with those types. It was this sort of thing that convinced me to retire at 54. Not suggesting the majority or any particular percent of 1%ers are like that, but having lived through it myself and heard similar stories from friends in other companies, I don't think my experience was a one off. If you've never encountered such behavior, count yourself lucky.
...

Bold mine. Isn't the second bonded statement implying that you are assuming the majority of 1%'ers are unhappy?
Wasn't that your very question? Does happiness go down for the 1%?

I have rarely seen the behavior you describe (except on the news). So my personal observations would be more similar to Danmar's.

All the studies I have found and heard of, show happiness either increasing, or remaining level as income increases beyond $50-$70k.

Some very wealthy individuals may be unhappy. However, I would suggest this has more to do with the person than the income level. They were likely unhappy back when they made much less.

As for me, I'd be slightly more happy with more money. Probably not by a lot except for the moment I donate the additional money

 

[Senator]

My take away from this is that the quicker I can get to $2.25 million (in 2010 dollars) the happier I'll be. That should be just enough to safely have the optimal $75K (3% rate) a year to remain happy.

Just save $1 a day, for 2.5 million days, and you are all set. Easy peasy.

 

[2017ish]

I retired at 53 with a paid off house, no debt, and a modest COLA govt. pension (starting next year when I turn 55) that will easily cover my inexpensive lifestyle.

I may not be in the top 1% in North America, but I'm easily in the top 1% on the planet and also have things worth more than money...freedom, democracy, and civil rights. I was lucky to be born where I was and am very thankful for what I have.

+a lot. Most everyone here has worked hard and planned assiduously. But, being born in the US/Canada (or other Western Democracy in the post WW2 era), and with the brain & health to take advantage of it, is luck.

E.T.A "Canada"

 

[eytonxav]

Bold mine. Isn't the second bonded statement implying that you are assuming the majority of 1%'ers are unhappy?
Wasn't that your very question? Does happiness go down for the 1%?

No, but as I originally mentioned earlier in this thread, I would be curious to see how those income levels correlate to happiness vs other tiers of income. That was just a hypothetical comment that seemed to cascade into more discussion than it is worth. Anyway, I suspect it would be difficult at best to measure such a correlation and again the thought that some 1%ers may be unhappy was based on my mega-corp experience and that of friends in various industries dealing with some pretty miserable SOBs. So its hard for me to believe that such execs can be happy with themselves. And yes, I fully recognize that not everyone was like that and have also enjoyed working for some pretty terrific types as well.