View Poll Results: I feel about the government's requirement to cut salaries...
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The government should butt out
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11.76% |
I disagree with government intervention but it feels good
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10.29% |
I agree wholeheartedly
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72.06% |
Other/no opinion
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5.88% |
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U.S. cuts pay at bailed out firms
10-22-2009, 10:34 PM
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#1
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 255
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U.S. cuts pay at bailed out firms
An article on Yahoo today says that the Obama Administration is telling the companies like AIG, GM, Bank of America who were bailed out and have not yet repaid the loans that they must drastically cut the pay of the top 25 execs at the firm. Bank of America said the ruling would put it at a disadvantage in competing with companies not under the pay czar's thumb. "People want to work here, but they want to be paid fairly," said BofA spokesman.
What does everybody think about this?
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10-22-2009, 11:02 PM
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#2
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
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The partially taxpayer-owned companies can do what Goldman did - repay the loans.
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10-23-2009, 12:54 AM
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#3
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,125
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Fair is such a loaded term, especially when it comes to pay. Since they are essentially government employees, is it fair that they get paid more than other government employees, say in the services?
__________________
Angels danced on the day that you were born.
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10-23-2009, 05:38 AM
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#4
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 150
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I needed another option! It doesn't go nearly far enough... NO ONE in a bailed out company (entity) should make more than old 'exec pay cap' (a Congressman's pay)...
Further anyone making more than exec pay cap in the two years preceding a bail out (OR bankruptcy) should forfeit the excess. Including any and all 'bonuses', etc. That would put a big hole in those 'golden parachutes'.
IF self-regulation worked, bail outs would NOT have been necessary! This would definitely provide some strong incentives to appropriate management and NOT creating these 'crisis' situations in the first place...
While I'm dreamin'... It would also be nice, if those who committed fraud and those who encouraged that fraud were fined and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
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10-23-2009, 05:48 AM
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#5
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bssc
Fair is such a loaded term, especially when it comes to pay.
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Like in "fair market value." The banks are correct in this case. I don't see how the worth, to a particular enterprise, of an executive can be determined by an outside committee. I see many Dragons down that path -- too many unintended consequences are possible/probable. (If the Government were to determine the rates of pay at ALL banks, I might feel differently, however.)
BTW, I don't understand the "middle" choice. Like a "gut" feeling? Or just "warm & fuzzy"?
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
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10-23-2009, 06:06 AM
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#6
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Full time employment: Posting here.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 851
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Sounds fair to me, any company I've ever owned or run I decided what to pay my employees, in this case the taxpayers essentially own the companies, or control a voting majority, so why shouldn't the "owners" dictate the pay?
This stuff makes me so mad, companies that are essentially bankrupt, paying millions of dollars to the very people that led the companies into bankruptcy (and by the way came close to a causing a complete economic collapse), crying poor because the "bad government" is cutting their pay...boo hoo.
Don't like it? Go find another job...same thing I use to tell my employees.
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10-23-2009, 07:04 AM
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#7
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,746
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I think those employees should just be glad they have a job in these difficult economic times. They should be willing to accept minimum wage. After all, the government has extended a helping hand to these banks and auto companies, so they should return the altruistic gesture by volunteering to work for minimum wage. They should be forced to work for the benefit of their employers and their shareholders at whatever rate the government sets because that is fair.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (8, 13, and 15).
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10-23-2009, 07:54 AM
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#8
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,645
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I don't agree. Gov't should butt out. This sets a bad and dangerous precident, IMO.
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10-23-2009, 08:00 AM
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#9
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 25,299
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I agree. Those "private companies" stopped being private when they accepted government/taxpayer money. The government is now a major stockholder in them and therefore should have a say in how they're run.
That said, I think the bailouts were stupid to begin with.
__________________
When I was a kid I wanted to be older. This is not what I expected.
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10-23-2009, 08:04 AM
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#10
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt34
The government is now a major stockholder in them and therefore should have a say in how they're run.
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Is that true? "We" purchased stock? Then shouldn't there be a Stockholder's meeting in which this issue is brought up for vote (a "say")?
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
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10-23-2009, 08:08 AM
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#11
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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In general I have no problem with the concept that if you want the government's help, it comes with strings attached that you should agree to accept if you want the bailout.
Having said that, the fact that (a) some of these businesses were *forced* to take the bailout and (b) terms are being changed and created after the fact is problematic. How would you like to take a loan where the lender was free to legally change the terms of the contract after the fact?
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
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10-23-2009, 08:19 AM
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#12
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29
How would you like to take a loan where the lender was free to legally change the terms of the contract after the fact?
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... and retroactively.
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
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10-23-2009, 08:35 AM
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#13
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 150
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Actually, I have a bigger problem with MY money being 'lent' without sufficient collateral or repayment schedule... Credit Cards do the changing terms thing constantly and your option is to either accept it or go elsewhere. When you take or get money from the gov't - you're subject to changing laws and legislation. Option - don't take money from the gov't... Paying millions in bonuses to failed execs is obscene. Capping compensation at the level of a congressman's is exceedingly generous for someone unable to profitably run a company...
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10-23-2009, 08:44 AM
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#14
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Recycles dryer sheets
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 169
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The best government is the least government. However, the free market forces have been disrupted by the bailout. Therefore, I think the government is justified in forcing changes, since they (we taxpayers) are invested in the bailout companies.
OK... it also feels good to cut the pay of those rascals.
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10-23-2009, 08:53 AM
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#15
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 6,256
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And it would feel even gooder if the pay was cut of those Weasels who thought up and voted in the bailout and are now making matters worse. They don't seem to be any more competent than the banking executives.
Everyone here keeps skirting the issue but if these people are so bad in their jobs, how can paying them less make them more capable? (Yeah, I know firing a Weasel is only possible every four or six years but those others... )
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
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10-23-2009, 09:10 AM
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#16
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 14,183
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Article on CNN today...
Who cares if Wall Street 'talent' leaves? - Oct. 23, 2009
Quote:
Still, we say Godspeed to this "talent." After all, the traders and suits in the corner offices don't exactly have an unblemished track record. In 2008, Citigroup, BofA and Merrill Lynch (since acquired by BofA) posted a grand total of $51 billion in losses.
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Bolding mine...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire
...not doing anything of true substance...
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10-23-2009, 09:10 AM
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#17
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,228
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Given the market I think paycuts are not going to result in a substantial loss of good people. How talented are any of these people? Talented at what? And people are more replaceable than some think. We better have strings attached when giving government money.
I read an article a while back about fears of wall street losing the best and the brightest. The author said the best and the brightest weren't in these job--they went to academia. The greediest and aggressive were in the big shot Wall Street jobs.
__________________
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No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA
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10-23-2009, 09:13 AM
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#18
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17,203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29
In general I have no problem with the concept that if you want the government's help, it comes with strings attached that you should agree to accept if you want the bailout.
Having said that, the fact that (a) some of these businesses were *forced* to take the bailout and (b) terms are being changed and created after the fact is problematic. How would you like to take a loan where the lender was free to legally change the terms of the contract after the fact?
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The ones listed were not 'forced'... they are the sick ones... they NEEDED the money to stay alive... the ones that were forced have already paid back the money and are now about to pay our record bonuses....
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10-23-2009, 09:37 AM
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#19
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,125
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I see this like going into bankruptcy court. The government cuts your some slack but you aren't allowed to keep your fourth vacation home. Almost all contracts can be renegotiated or negated by the court.
__________________
Angels danced on the day that you were born.
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10-23-2009, 09:48 AM
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#20
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Oregon Coast
Posts: 16,483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
The ones listed were not 'forced'... they are the sick ones... they NEEDED the money to stay alive... the ones that were forced have already paid back the money and are now about to pay our record bonuses....
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Actually, there have been several cases where the businesses wanted to pay the bailout money back but the government refused to allow it -- presumably because they still wanted to tell these businesses how to run themselves, leverage they'd lose if the businesses paid it off.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)
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