Unrealistic Expectations

[Music Lover]

The concept of delayed gratification has become all but extinct.

It's no surprise that if you keep promising that all university debt will be cancelled and people will get a universal basic income for life for doing nothing, then we shouldn't be surprised if some people start believing it's owed to them.

 

[Zathras]

Some people do have unrealistic expectations, but I think it is absolutely true that it's more difficult to build financial security as easily as past generations (at least for most young people). Just look at the data............wages have been basically flat (or actually declining, when factoring in inflation) since about 1980. We've had a couple of recessions and a pandemic lately, that has really set a lot of young people back quite a few years in their careers. Sure, some highly motivated young folks have managed to avoid these pitfalls and still do fine, but a whole lot more are struggling. Personally, I am glad that I entered my working years when I did, as opposed to anytime in the last couple of decades. All you need to do is look at the huge increase in wealth inequality in this country over the last 30-40 years to see where the vast majority of the $$ is going. It's not a trend that is good for the country, IMO.

+1!

I couldn’t have said it better myself.
The stereotyping of the ‘lazy younger generation’ is rampant here.

 

[braumeister]

Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
Kids!
They are disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, sloppy, lazy, loafers!
While we're on the subject:
Kids!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids!
But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can't they be like we were
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?

-- from Bye Bye Birdie, 1963

 

[pacergal]

Some people do have unrealistic expectations, but I think it is absolutely true that it's more difficult to build financial security as easily as past generations (at least for most young people). Just look at the data............wages have been basically flat (or actually declining, when factoring in inflation) since about 1980. We've had a couple of recessions and a pandemic lately, that has really set a lot of young people back quite a few years in their careers. Sure, some highly motivated young folks have managed to avoid these pitfalls and still do fine, but a whole lot more are struggling. Personally, I am glad that I entered my working years when I did, as opposed to anytime in the last couple of decades. All you need to do is look at the huge increase in wealth inequality in this country over the last 30-40 years to see where the vast majority of the $$ is going. It's not a trend that is good for the country, IMO.

Agree.

 

[Montecfo]

Some people do have unrealistic expectations, but I think it is absolutely true that it's more difficult to build financial security as easily as past generations (at least for most young people). Just look at the data............wages have been basically flat (or actually declining, when factoring in inflation) since about 1980. We've had a couple of recessions and a pandemic lately, that has really set a lot of young people back quite a few years in their careers. Sure, some highly motivated young folks have managed to avoid these pitfalls and still do fine, but a whole lot more are struggling. Personally, I am glad that I entered my working years when I did, as opposed to anytime in the last couple of decades. All you need to do is look at the huge increase in wealth inequality in this country over the last 30-40 years to see where the vast majority of the $$ is going. It's not a trend that is good for the country, IMO.

Wages flat but I entered the post-college workforce about that then (1981 actually) and somehow managed to grow my income steadily over time through having more marketable skills and qualifying myself for better jobs.

And interest costs declined steadily-right up till today--so financing home ownership got steadily cheaper, for example.

That same steady decline in interest rates drove the greatest bull market in stocks in history. If you lived below your means and saved some (I did) you really got massive returns since 1980.

All told, it was an excellent time to enter the workforce, in my opinion. The opportunity lies with the individual.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

There are many variables and excuses. I don't necessarily think things are tougher these days than perhaps in the past...each generation has had some type of significant event that shapes their future. What I tend to see is a general malaise in that hard work shouldn't be required for success.

Whether it be the traditional college route or a blue collar trade, it takes considerable work to get ahead in the world. And guess what? There are a LOT more people than there were on the globe, so the competition is greater. Not much room for mediocrity these days.

I know folks that did the enlisted military route and some how got to be quite successful in life.

I know folks that did the traditional college route and some how got to be quite successful.

I know folks that were plumbers/landscapers/electricians and some how got the be quite successful.

What they all have in common is that they all WORKED VERY HARD to get where they are.

On the other hand, I have met two (maybe 3?) folks who either came from dynastic wealth or were "trust fund babies" and have done pretty well, probably with not too much work...but those are few and far between.

 

[razztazz]

somehow managed

Open admission of luck. Everything else sort of evaporates after that. Sorry, it's right there in the language.

 

[Time2]

Wow, what a change of pace from:
I am lucky to have been, born, healthy, white, male, in the USA, at the right time, happened to like listening to talk radio, happened to hear, enjoy and learn much from Bob Brinker on the radio and begin investing because of that. I’m just so lucky. But, I didn’t build that! It is only because I was lucky. Only being somewhat sarcastic.

Oh, and we lived below our means, not sure who did that for me.

 

[Out of Steam]

Indeed. A regular complaint I hear about Connecticut is that taxes are too high to retire here. Which baffles me, because they've been the same for a long time and it shouldn't come as a surprise.

But, if you have no family connections to a high-cost area, there is a huge incentive to leave. That was our choice, though we knew that we wouldn't retire in the DC area for a decade before we left.

I have family who are staying in New York because of their grown children, even though they are quite unhappy (and probably underfunded) there.

 

[SnowballCamper]

As the pandemic stretches on, I have noticed a lot of people with unrealistic expectations. A few examples are the fact that people expect a vaccine to be 100% effective, no side effects, no illness, and no pain. People are expecting colleges to be completely free, everybody accepted, no cost factor, and a ticket to a million dollar house on graduation. People are saying you can't build financial security as easily as past generations. Whether that's the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, get it?

I think it's a lot to do with the fact that journalism is funded by clicks on headlines that are shocking. Ridiculous headlines make us think, "what the hell" and then click to read which in turn funds more of the same headlines. When the news media acts as if vaccines should be 100% perfect and any deviation is cause for headlines, then we think other people have those expectations. Rinse and repeat on any other topic.

 

[Gumby]

Open admission of luck. Everything else sort of evaporates after that. Sorry, it's right there in the language.

Stop trolling.

 

[LOL!]

I will completely disagree the premise of the OP. I have a couple of 20-something children who are out working now. Despite the rant-fest in this thread, neither they nor their friends have unrealistic expectations. And I can extend that to people I know in all age groups.

Get out there and see what the Real World is like. This is not a FairyLand Utopia and if anyone believes that then they are being exposed to the wrong media sources as well as the wrong message boards. Don't be one of the people spreading misinformation, too.

 

[gayl]

Get out there and see what the Real World is like. This is not a FairyLand Utopia

Actually I agree 1000% but I do read that on all boards (even here), hear it in the news these days, and evidently throughout history

 

[Music Lover]

I will completely disagree the premise of the OP. I have a couple of 20-something children who are out working now. Despite the rant-fest in this thread, neither they nor their friends have unrealistic expectations. And I can extend that to people I know in all age groups.

Get out there and see what the Real World is like. This is not a FairyLand Utopia and if anyone believes that then they are being exposed to the wrong media sources as well as the wrong message boards. Don't be one of the people spreading misinformation, too.

It's not just media and message boards. Schools and universities are also spreading misinformation.

That being said, I know many young people who are doing well. The ones that aren't...it's likely that some of them would have struggled decades ago too.

 

[lordjust]

I will completely disagree the premise of the OP. I have a couple of 20-something children who are out working now. Despite the rant-fest in this thread, neither they nor ttheir friends have unrealistic expectations. And I can extend that to people I know in all age groups.

Get out there and see what the Real World is like. This is not a FairyLand Utopia and if anyone believes that then they are being exposed to the wrong media sources as well as the wrong message boards. Don't be one of the people spreading misinformation, too.

I was interviewing for a leadership role a few years back. I asked the CIO what was his biggest concern. He said that the new employees had very different criteria for accepting a job. They no longer cared about a pension, they were only moderately interested in their salary. The questions all revolved around time off and the ability to take time away from work. He was very concerned about employee retention (not that companies are loyal anymore). He also was not quite sure how to fix the issue if you have staff that would just leave. Just something to consider when people discuss the younger generation and what their criteria is for a "good" company. It seems a bit short sighted to me .. my opinion of course.

 

[Time2]

I will completely disagree the premise of the OP. I have a couple of 20-something children who are out working now. Despite the rant-fest in this thread, neither they nor their friends have unrealistic expectations. And I can extend that to people I know in all age groups.

Get out there and see what the Real World is like. This is not a FairyLand Utopia and if anyone believes that then they are being exposed to the wrong media sources as well as the wrong message boards. Don't be one of the people spreading misinformation, too.

The premise does apply, the question is to how many of those young people. My daughter (late 20s) has friends that live on both ends, some have way overspent their incomes with big expensive houses, others are living comfortably under their income. My son seems to live well below his income and is saving a lot, bu,t he is back living with us shortly after graduating, (makes it kind of easy to do, but even so, many don't save).
My daughter has big dreams, but also was raised by conservative parents, she has so far has kept things under control. Her and her husband recently bought a house. It was too soon as far as I'm concerned, she still has one year of dental school left and she will be 7 hours away form the house for a year. But, I'm glad the price is within his income and low for their area, (they bought a repo). It is on the water which they both wanted. Already making plans to add a second story, but I hope that is years down the road. After she graduates, the price of the house will be two years income.

So then, dad, do I pay off a 3.2% mortgage. I'll tell her no, invest it, even though I paid cash for my house 27 years ago. I think that is the right answer for a 30 something.

 

[JoshTrent]

The concept of delayed gratification has become all but extinct.

I will raise you one, and say that immediate gratification has become the norm.. and not only is one NOT saving money by delaying gratification, one might be spending more to satisfy the immediate "need".

In a world of lifestyle creep, perhaps one needs to note SLBYM (satisfyingly living below your means) instead of LBYM, just too denote your lifestyle is what you want, and not what you need.

 

[24601NoMore]

Wow, what a change of pace from:
I am lucky to have been, born, healthy, white, male, in the USA, at the right time, happened to like listening to talk radio, happened to hear, enjoy and learn much from Bob Brinker on the radio and begin investing because of that. I’m just so lucky. But, I didn’t build that! It is only because I was lucky. Only being somewhat sarcastic.

Oh, and we lived below our means, not sure who did that for me.

As someone who's had to work from the age of 12 (paper route, then computers shortly thereafter starting around age 15) to achieve what I EARNED through hard work and sacrifice, few things frost me as much as hearing people talk about "luck" playing such a big part in someone being successful - or not.

"Luck" does not determine destiny. Hard work and sacrifice do. I grew up in inner city Detroit, in a 50/50 or so neighborhood. True story - there was an event I wanted to go to once and it cost a whole dollar. Mom told me she was very sorry, but we (literally) did not have a dollar for me to go to the event - and that was absolutely true. So, how "lucky" were we? I'd contend..not very. Yet, I somehow managed to go to college (9 years to get my 4 year degree since I worked every day to pay every single dollar of my own way), graduate with honors and retire early at 55. Hmmmm...

Hard work was, and remains, how one gets ahead in life. The popular refrain to allege "luck" is a cop-out, IMHO, from those who think there are some magic bonus points that one receives by being born in a certain neighborhood, being a certain race, etc. Nope. Everyone can succeed (barring something significant like a physical or emotional disability) if they CHOOSE to succeed and make the sacrifices needed to do so..unfortunately, that is so out of vogue nowadays and so many just expect to be "given" things instead of having to work hard for them..

 

[Koolau]

For most people, luck is a 2nd order effect IMO. There are a few folks in this life who got a really bad break - profoundly retarded or disabled. But for most of us, you could say "yes, it was harder for that guy than this guy due to XYZ." But if the person with the "unlucky" break worked a bit harder, s/he probably ended up better than the lucky person. I've mentioned my disabled dad and my mom who had few options except to create their own "luck" though a small business. They worked very long hours but succeeded at a time when we didn't just say "you poor dear - here's some money 'cause you obviously can't make it."

Sorry. I guess it's personal to me. I hate the word luck though I deny only it's dominance in success. 2nd order, baby, 2nd order at best. YMMV

 

[Montecfo]

Open admission of luck. Everything else sort of evaporates after that. Sorry, it's right there in the language.

I know!!

And the harder I worked, the luckier I got.

strangest thing...

 

[daylatedollarshort]

The concept of delayed gratification has become all but extinct.

Maybe not extinct, but if you are referring to the classic Stanford marshmallow experiment, those findings have been put into question because of the small, non-diverse study sample in the original study.

"Ultimately, the new study finds limited support for the idea that being able to delay gratification leads to better outcomes. Instead, it suggests that the capacity to hold out for a second marshmallow is shaped in large part by a child’s social and economic background—and, in turn, that that background, not the ability to delay gratification, is what’s behind kids’ long-term success."
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/marshmallow-test/561779/

 

[Time2]

As someone who's had to work from the age of 12 (paper route, then computers shortly thereafter starting around age 15) to achieve what I EARNED through hard work and sacrifice, few things frost me as much as hearing people talk about "luck" playing such a big part in someone being successful - or not.

"Luck" does not determine destiny. Hard work and sacrifice do. I grew up in inner city Detroit, in a 50/50 or so neighborhood. True story - there was an event I wanted to go to once and it cost a whole dollar. Mom told me she was very sorry, but we (literally) did not have a dollar for me to go to the event - and that was absolutely true. So, how "lucky" were we? I'd contend..not very. Yet, I somehow managed to go to college (9 years to get my 4 year degree since I worked every day to pay every single dollar of my own way), graduate with honors and retire early at 55. Hmmmm...

Hard work was, and remains, how one gets ahead in life. The popular refrain to allege "luck" is a cop-out, IMHO, from those who think there are some magic bonus points that one receives by being born in a certain neighborhood, being a certain race, etc. Nope. Everyone can succeed (barring something significant like a physical or emotional disability) if they CHOOSE to succeed and make the sacrifices needed to do so..unfortunately, that is so out of vogue nowadays and so many just expect to be "given" things instead of having to work hard for them..

Hi 24602NoMore, I think you got that I was being a little tongue in cheek.

I started the thread If we can do it, anyone can?. in it I ask, "If a young couple earns near $80k can they do what we did over 30+ years, or, are things really different?"
I got a few comments, (don't really know if they were aimed at me, but probably some)

"I tend to read a sense of moral superiority in these threads"
"No-one here will puncture your personal Horatio Alger story. We all believe ours too."

"Sure, these threads appear every two-three weeks. The tone is generally self-congratulatory."
"Consider those who also did the right things, but had bad luck: Picked the wrong parents, extended joblessness, medical catastrophes, divorces, business failure, a need to support aging parents or special needs children, ... the list is endless. Those folks are not active in the forum. They are silent evidence proving that not any one can. The truth is that "anyone" cannot. Only the lucky ones win."
"just having the stupendous luck to have been born in a Western developed country at this era of history, especially speaking English, is a massive,"
"Yes. I have a longer version of the "your success is mostly due to luck" sermon that discusses that. Basically for most of us, before we had ever pooped in a diaper we had won the lottery."


Hard work and LBYMs does get you ahead, but Luck "Bad Luck", can negate all that. But, that idea should not take away from spending a life doing all the right things, just to have people say you are lucky. No, you just didn't have bad luck. /Rant complete/

 

[daylatedollarshort]

We have many examples here of people who were poor and ended up financially secure. But these are all anecdotes. Perhaps what we should be more concerned with are objective measures for the nation as a whole. How do we compare to other developed countries? Is it easier or harder to get ahead in the U.S. now than it was decades ago? Is it harder in the U.S. than in other developed countries, like those in the EU?

Looking at the data, the U.S. overall does have less upward mobility than the EU these days - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/13/american-dream-broken-upward-mobility-us

 

[JP.mpls]

The difference that I see is that when I graduated from high school you could get a good paying job with no skills at a factory. This allowed people to buy homes and have families. Now many non skilled people work for minimum wage. It’s a huge difference.

Terry, I think this is correct. My friends father was in the navy, and then worked in the shipping department of some company.
He managed to buy a home in the suburbs, have his wife stay home, and raise four kids with basically a highschool education.
That isn't happening anymore.
JP

 

[Popeye]

We have many examples here of people who were poor and ended up financially secure. But these are all anecdotes. Perhaps what we should be more concerned with are objective measures for the nation as a whole. How do we compare to other developed countries? Is it easier or harder to get ahead in the U.S. now than it was decades ago? Is it harder in the U.S. than in other developed countries, like those in the EU?

Looking at the data, the U.S. overall does have less upward mobility than the EU these days - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/13/american-dream-broken-upward-mobility-us

I read the article. Lots of correlation presented as cause and effect interlaced with unsupported assumptions likely tied to the ideology of the authors.

Greater income differential in the US is not in and of itself proof that it is more difficult for one to achieve upward income mobility. Bill Gates’ billions don’t prevent anyone from getting a raise.