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Vacation home as a nest egg
Old 08-19-2020, 11:06 AM   #1
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Vacation home as a nest egg

I wonder how many other people have a vacation home that is an important part of their nest egg? My parents never had a vacation home, but my friends' parents who had vacation homes mostly sold them in retirement, some because they needed money, others due to declining health and hence lack-of-use. One was passed to a child, but is now being used as a primary residence, so that doesn't really count. A good friend of mine who is about 60 knows if he retires he can't be FI without ditching his vacation home, so, he's still w*rking.

For me, I've been running FIRECALC scenarios. We can't afford to keep the vacation home if the stock market doesn't do well, unless we reduce our spending, or receive some inheritance someday. But I could FIRE now, start drawing down my investments, and then sell the vacation home later.

Anyone here care to share their stories of selling their vacation home in retirement? Or, talk about your plans to?
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Old 08-19-2020, 11:20 AM   #2
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We won't have to sell our second home; it is being bequeathed to #1 son. He will get the basis step-up so no taxes on our large gain will ever be paid.

But I think the idea of planning on the proceeds from a sale might be a little dicey. The very things that could hurt the economy will also reduce demand for second homes. Longer selling times, lower prices. Demographics may be an issue too. If the baby boomers are done buying their second homes will the next generation be big enough and rich enough to buy the boomers out?

I think if I was in that situation I would be looking at selling sooner rather than later and certainly well before I really needed the money. Good luck to you, though. It may work out just fine.
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Old 08-19-2020, 11:28 AM   #3
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Vacation areas "usually" get hit harder in recessions than "normals". At least in our area. I think real estate prices dropped 50% or so in the Great Recession. Lots of foreclosures. With Covid & people able to work anywhere that might be changing a bit. Our town real estate is hot right now

We bought our home as a way to get away. And we knew that vacations would not be possible. Our thinking was that we would use the home more often than a once a year vacation. (and we did) We had great family time there. 4 years ago we downsized to the vacation home. But I would not look to real estate as a nest egg. I think the stock market would have been better as an investment. But the stock market can't let you see all the stars in the night sky
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:14 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by OldShooter View Post

But I think the idea of planning on the proceeds from a sale might be a little dicey. The very things that could hurt the economy will also reduce demand for second homes. Longer selling times, lower prices. Demographics may be an issue too. If the baby boomers are done buying their second homes will the next generation be big enough and rich enough to buy the boomers out?

I think if I was in that situation I would be looking at selling sooner rather than later and certainly well before I really needed the money. Good luck to you, though. It may work out just fine.
I'll partially disagree, just for the sake of discussion........

A vacation home is no different than any other non-monetary investment. It's worth in the future will depend on the market at the time. Vacation home on the lake, art on the wall, collector car in the garage, etc., they all have the potential to appreciate or depreciate.

Assuming I enjoyed the vacation home and the cost of taxes and maintenance was about equal to what I'd pay renting lakeside cabins multiple times a year, I'd just as soon have my net worth be 90% financial assets and 10% vacation home as have it be 100% financial assets. Yes, as you say, the vacation home might drop in value, but so may any of my financial assets. And, who knows, your 10% in real estate just might do better than the financial markets.

I think the key part of OP's question is
Quote:
a vacation home that is an important part of their nest egg?
I used a 10% example because for us, 10% of our FIRE portfolio would fund a decent year around home on a good walleye lake "Up Nort." Would I put 50% of our FIRE portfolio into a vacation home? Dunno. Probably not. For the same reason I wouldn't put 50% of our FIRE portfolio into any single concentrated investment.

OP, please clarify "important part."
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Don't forget the expense to maintain 2 homes.
Old 08-19-2020, 12:39 PM   #5
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Don't forget the expense to maintain 2 homes.

We have more money than we need to maintain our lifestyle in retirement, and really enjoy our 2nd home on Beaver Island, MI. My wife does not have LTC insurance but if it comes to that the sale of the cottage will help pay for her care.

However, when I put together the foregone earnings from the money used to buy it, taxes, maintenance and remodeling, and furniture it is pretty expensive. Maybe we will see some price appreciation, but can't count on that. So I figured it would cost us $15-30K annually (the higher figure assuming historic returns from the stock market if we had left the money invested. If we are lucky we get half of that back as price appreciation. However, we bought a nice house on Lake Michigan for $200K because this island was hit with declining prices after 2008 and hasn't seen much improvement since.
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Old 08-19-2020, 12:42 PM   #6
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The very things that could hurt the economy will also reduce demand for second homes.
In our case, the second home is suitable as a primary residence. So, hopefully it won't fall in price like other vacation homes in a recession.

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With Covid & people able to work anywhere that might be changing a bit. Our town real estate is hot right now
I think there's going to be a huge shift with remote work. White collar employees are going to move to the nicest places in the world, pushing up real estate prices there. They will be moving away from expensive cities that drew them in with short commute times. I'd rather sell my city home right now, as I expect it to drop in value in this post-COVID white-collar employment shift. The saving grace is I expect my vacation home to go up because of this, offsetting the losses when my city home goes down.

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4 years ago we downsized to the vacation home. But I would not look to real estate as a nest egg. I think the stock market would have been better as an investment.
I'm only counting on my Real Estate to keep pace with inflation. The buildings may depreciate after inflation, but I'm expecting the land appreciation to counter the depreciation of buildings. (I am, however, expecting to lose money on one, and gain on the other, due to the post-covid white-collar shift.)

Which reminds me. Way way back, in my 20s, I couldn't really figure out inflation, currencies, money, investment returns, etc. Money still freaks me out a little, it's so artificial, created by governments out of thin air, based on our willingness to believe it will retain its value. Anyway, I figured I had to frame everything in terms of real assets. Shares in a company are an ownership of production capacity, and the production of goods and services has value regardless of inflation, currency, whatever. But, shares are very speculative too, and confusing, with different share classes and the proliferation of derived investment products. So, I decided to analyze everything in terms of real estate. My long term retirement plan was to have assets equivalent to the value of four houses. Why four houses? Here was the formula:

1) Define your standard of living in terms of the residence you want to live in, and the percent of your income that you want to spend on housing.

2) Add something for carrying costs (property taxes, maintenance, etc.)

In my case, my vision was, in retirement, to have 1/3 of my income going to my housing; that is, rent one of three houses to myself, rent two out to other people. Then, the rental income from the fourth house would just pay for maintenance and property taxes on all four.

I'd explain this to people and they'd try to explain that real estate is not the best investment. They couldn't understand that this was just my way of putting things completely independent of inflation, currency, dollars, return, etc. We didn't have FIRECALC back then, so the stock market was not something that could be tamed through historical analysis, at least not to my satisfaction. And, most people I talked to were almost ignoring inflation! Someone told me that the word "Real" in "Real Estate" refers to the fact that it's the only asset that isn't subject to depreciation, that it's "real" because it holds its value. (I've since learned that's not why Real Estate is called "Real".)

Anyway, I realize now we've achieved that goal that I set in my 20s. I have two houses, not four, but they are worth more than my standard of living vision. And, I have investments that could buy another. So, according to my analysis when I was 20, I could retire. But, I would need to rent out one of the houses, or, sell the city house and buy something cheaper. My analysis in my 20's didn't have us *using* more than one house, just *owning* more than one house. Hence, I can't retire.
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Old 08-19-2020, 01:22 PM   #7
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In our case, the second home is suitable as a primary residence. So, hopefully it won't fall in price like other vacation homes in a recession. ...
Yeah, maybe. But I'm going to stick to my guns on this one. For reference, our lake home is a three level walkout with a 24x36' attached garage, 2x6 walls, premium windows, etc. Definitely not a shack in the woods. The lake is topnotch, too. Spring fed, no inlets, 4,000 acres, 5 miles long. Coincidentally, the property is a little under 10% of our net worth.

But ... our house is in a rural school district, which was a reduction factor in the appraisal. That was a don't-care for us, but may not be for someone buying it as a primary residence. Also, it is currently worth about twice the $$ of an equivalent house that is not on a topnotch lake. That price premium may be beyond what a primary residence buyer will choose to or be able to pay during a recession.

I am pretty much keying on your phrase: " ... an important part of their nest egg ... ," especially the word "important." Like many things, the consequence of a misjudgment regarding the future value of an "important" asset is not symmetrical. An underestimate/higher value than expected is a mildly happy event. An overestimate/less value than expected could be significantly painful if the asset is "important" at the future time of sale.

So, as I said, I wish you good luck but encourage you to watch your back very carefully and, if a sale is necessary, be ahead of the crowd.
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Old 08-19-2020, 01:54 PM   #8
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Yeah, maybe. But I'm going to stick to my guns on this one. For reference, our lake home is a three level walkout with a 24x36' attached garage, 2x6 walls, premium windows, etc. Definitely not a shack in the woods. The lake is topnotch, too. Spring fed, no inlets, 4,000 acres, 5 miles long. Coincidentally, the property is a little under 10% of our net worth.

But ... our house is in a rural school district, which was a reduction factor in the appraisal. That was a don't-care for us, but may not be for someone buying it as a primary residence. Also, it is currently worth about twice the $$ of an equivalent house that is not on a topnotch lake. That price premium may be beyond what a primary residence buyer will choose to or be able to pay during a recession.

I am pretty much keying on your phrase: " ... an important part of their nest egg ... ," especially the word "important." Like many things, the consequence of a misjudgment regarding the future value of an "important" asset is not symmetrical. An underestimate/higher value than expected is a mildly happy event. An overestimate/less value than expected could be significantly painful if the asset is "important" at the future time of sale.

So, as I said, I wish you good luck but encourage you to watch your back very carefully and, if a sale is necessary, be ahead of the crowd.
I am certainly not thrilled that 2/3 of our net worth is in two expensive homes in essentially the same market ó one expensive because itís near downtown, the other expensive because itís in the mountains. I surely should sell at least one of them, and rent instead.
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Old 08-19-2020, 06:03 PM   #9
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I have had a second home for many years. It is a three hour drive from my primary home so when I was working I used it many weekends and now I use it most of the summer. I do not rent it out. I love it and it has been great for us because we use it so much. But it has not been a good investment. I am sure when I factor in all the expenses I probably will lose money on it when I finally sell it. For one thing I hire out all the maintenance and upkeep--I don't want to spend my time doing those things and there is a lot of maintenance and upkeep. Another issue is that the values went down so much in the 2008 recession, it has never recovered. I don't know what is going to happen with the Covid recession.

Another downside is that sometimes I have felt like it kept me from traveling to other places. There is so much expense tied up in a second home that I sometimes feel like I cannot also justify trips to other locations. Right now, due to Covid, I would not traveling any where else so this issue is not a problem this year.

A third downside it noise. I am in a resort area and there are several rental houses and many people who rent here have noisy parties and noisy dogs. For instance, today my relaxation of sitting on my porch reading was ruined by someone's noisy dogs down the road. Our cabin is private and not near the neighbors but I could still hear these dogs howling.

My second home has worked for me and the advantages outweigh the downside but it is not perfect and not really a good investment in my opinion.
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Old 08-19-2020, 06:36 PM   #10
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We snowbird and I'm (kicking and screaming) moving toward figuring out how to deal with minimizing the amount that goes to governmental bodies when we croak it. Oregon has a state death tax that has a one million dollar threshold and runs from 10 to 16%. Gal has no desire whatsoever to sell the Oregon house we worked hard on. Looking more and more like the the smartest thing to do is for me to become a California resident (Gal did several years ago to claim the California house as her primary). As a California resident there's no tax till it reaches Federal $11,580,000 level, which my estate won't do. Then we just keep snow-birding back and forth but spend a few extra days in the south. Oregon will still tax me/us for real property we have in Oregon, but I'm trying to sell off our rental fleet, so ideally we'll only be taxed on the Oregon house.

Of course tax laws do change and who knows if the rentals will actually sell, massively decreasing our income.
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Old 08-19-2020, 07:41 PM   #11
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Old 08-19-2020, 07:53 PM   #12
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We have a nothing front home in the middle of nowhere. We love it, but it's certainly not out best performing asset.
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Old 08-19-2020, 09:01 PM   #13
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We bought our vacation home in 2001 and paid it off in 15 years through rentals. Itís a 1 bedroom condo in a ski resort. Bought for $130K and now worth $250K. Not a key part of our retirement portfolio, but we have saved a lot over the years by not having to rent a place ourselves. We use it about 40-50 days a year. We LOVE going up there to fly-fish in the summer and ski in the winter. The only problem is that it is located in BC CANADA. Us stupid Americans arenít allowed to visit since we donít know how to manage a Pandemic. So, while I love the Canadian people and our vacation home. ...If I had to do it again, I might choose a place in the US that is readily usable. Hopefully this insanity will end. The summer fishing season is shot, but 'Winter Is Coming' I havenít bought my season ski pass yet and the early bird discount price is about to expire. I wish Canada would open their borders to folks that reside is specific states, and can also produce a negative covid test result within say 7-10 days before entry. We'd be golden.
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Old 08-19-2020, 09:33 PM   #14
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We won't have to sell our second home; it is being bequeathed to #1 son. He will get the basis step-up so no taxes on our large gain will ever be paid.

But I think the idea of planning on the proceeds from a sale might be a little dicey. The very things that could hurt the economy will also reduce demand for second homes. Longer selling times, lower prices. Demographics may be an issue too. If the baby boomers are done buying their second homes will the next generation be big enough and rich enough to buy the boomers out?

I think if I was in that situation I would be looking at selling sooner rather than later and certainly well before I really needed the money. Good luck to you, though. It may work out just fine.

Iím not very knowledgeable about tax law but I thought changing the step up for inherited homes was something Bidenís tax plan aims to change. Are you thinking thatís not a likely scenario?

Itís definitely something Iíve thought about as my mom bought her home in Silicon Valley back in the 60ís!
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Old 08-20-2020, 06:39 AM   #15
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We have more money than we need to maintain our lifestyle in retirement, and really enjoy our 2nd home on Beaver Island, MI. My wife does not have LTC insurance but if it comes to that the sale of the cottage will help pay for her care.

However, when I put together the foregone earnings from the money used to buy it, taxes, maintenance and remodeling, and furniture it is pretty expensive. Maybe we will see some price appreciation, but can't count on that. So I figured it would cost us $15-30K annually (the higher figure assuming historic returns from the stock market if we had left the money invested. If we are lucky we get half of that back as price appreciation. However, we bought a nice house on Lake Michigan for $200K because this island was hit with declining prices after 2008 and hasn't seen much improvement since.
This was our situation. We built a nice weekend lace on the tidal Potomac in 1991 and got a lot of use from it. Visiting with family and friends, skiing, windsurfing, barbecues by the pool. As we approached ER, our FIRE SWR evaluation included the weekend home. I retired in 2006 and we kept the home for a decade and it worked out as forecast. But then the grandkids got very active in sports so the kids stopped coming down as much, and a lot of our aging friends were too sedentary to take advantage of the water sports, and so on until that maintenance, tax, and opportunity loss that MikeTN mentioned started to loom large. We both lost interest in keeping it up and sold in 2016. We have never regretted the decision. It might have been nice to have such an oasis during the pandemic except that we would have enjoyed it alone. Not worth the cost.
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Old 08-20-2020, 08:38 AM   #16
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Iím not very knowledgeable about tax law but I thought changing the step up for inherited homes was something Bidenís tax plan aims to change. Are you thinking thatís not a likely scenario? ...
I have no idea even what is in Biden's current plan. More generally I think trying to anticipate the government's tax policy is a fool's errand.

When I do think about tax policy, I think in terms of which groups of voters will be affected by a change. My guess (not hampered by any facts) is that the old folks, who are a powerful voting block, would probably be against such a change just as the sugar beet farmers will be against a change that hurts their subsidies.
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Old 08-20-2020, 09:53 AM   #17
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In the Toronto area, many retirees sell their place in Toronto and move to the second home. They already have a groups of friends and neighbours there, many also from Toronto. It enables many to live on their Toronto nest egg and still get back to Toronto for special events.

Both my sons will probably follow that model too.
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Old 08-20-2020, 03:29 PM   #18
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Vacation areas "usually" get hit harder in recessions than "normals"...
I bought my 2nd home in the high-country boondocks 15 years ago. I may be able to sell it at the same price I paid, despite the improvements I put on.

In this 15-year period, my main home in the metropolitan suburb appreciated perhaps 10-15%, barely matching the inflation. Quite lousy compared to the stock market.

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We bought our home as a way to get away. And we knew that vacations would not be possible. Our thinking was that we would use the home more often than a once a year vacation. (and we did) We had great family time there. 4 years ago we downsized to the vacation home. But I would not look to real estate as a nest egg. I think the stock market would have been better as an investment. But the stock market can't let you see all the stars in the night sky
My 2nd home is only a 2-1/2 hour drive away, so I used to go up as often as every weekend. And when my work turned sporadic, I would alternate between the 2 homes.

I bought it for enjoyment, and never planned it as an investment. At least, I can get some money back when I sell it, compared to losing all of it if I had bought a luxury class A motorhome as some people do.
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Old 08-20-2020, 03:38 PM   #19
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... In this 15-year period, my main home in the metropolitan suburb appreciated perhaps 10-15%, barely matching the inflation. Quite lousy compared to the stock market. ...
No surprise really. Property appreciation around the country varies widely depending on geography and economic factors and over time, but in the end it must be constrained by family income growth.

People make money on residential real estate by leveraging it, not by buying and holding with no leverage. No leverage pretty much leaves you with overall inflation +/- local market factors.
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Old 08-20-2020, 10:57 PM   #20
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We bought our vacation home in 2001 and paid it off in 15 years through rentals. Itís a 1 bedroom condo in a ski resort. Bought for $130K and now worth $250K. Not a key part of our retirement portfolio, but we have saved a lot over the years by not having to rent a place ourselves. We use it about 40-50 days a year. We LOVE going up there to fly-fish in the summer and ski in the winter. The only problem is that it is located in BC CANADA. Us stupid Americans arenít allowed to visit since we donít know how to manage a Pandemic. So, while I love the Canadian people and our vacation home. ...If I had to do it again, I might choose a place in the US that is readily usable. Hopefully this insanity will end. The summer fishing season is shot, but 'Winter Is Coming' I havenít bought my season ski pass yet and the early bird discount price is about to expire. I wish Canada would open their borders to folks that reside is specific states, and can also produce a negative covid test result within say 7-10 days before entry. We'd be golden.
The border closure is extended until Sept 21

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sandram.../#2c50274e4909
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