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Old 08-18-2017, 08:18 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by CaliKid View Post
Trusts are not perfect but they are far superior in real life to TODs. I am stating facts not one person's experience. The problem is that a TOD the D being DEATH. How's incapacity planning work with a TOD? It doesn't as it's only D. Most financial institutions do not accept general powers of attorney. Maybe go get a conservatorship!? If that were the case then you would know how great a trust is. When set up right, with proper language, with proper back-up plans in place, a trust is FAR superior to TODs. It's not close unless you happen to die perfectly and never need a trustee during incapacity. Oh ya, and you can't set up a creditor protection trust with a TOD. I can explain that another day. Simply put you can set up a trust for a third party and give them some creditor protection that they otherwise would not have after you die. Again, FAR superior to a TOD.
Of course part of the solution with a POA is to have your lawyer write a letter to the chief counsel of the financial institution about the poa if it is rejected. The letter will be read at that level, and folks at that level can do things that branch workers can not. (Perhpas also a copy to the banks regulators as well as the FDIC)
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:44 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by CaliKid View Post
Trusts are not perfect but they are far superior in real life to TODs. I am stating facts not one person's experience. The problem is that a TOD the D being DEATH. How's incapacity planning work with a TOD? It doesn't as it's only D. Most financial institutions do not accept general powers of attorney. Maybe go get a conservatorship!? If that were the case then you would know how great a trust is. When set up right, with proper language, with proper back-up plans in place, a trust is FAR superior to TODs. It's not close unless you happen to die perfectly and never need a trustee during incapacity. Oh ya, and you can't set up a creditor protection trust with a TOD. I can explain that another day. Simply put you can set up a trust for a third party and give them some creditor protection that they otherwise would not have after you die. Again, FAR superior to a TOD.
MIL had paperwork in place, drawn up by her atty, for incapacity. Unless this paperwork is in place with trusts, a trust would not cover incapacity. I know my father's didn't as his trust only addressed financial issues. In the event of incapacity, we would have had to go to court.

We had a POA in place with another family member, the NOLO version, that was accepted by all financial institutions. I was able to handle RMDs and all other financial aspects including selling a home to generate cash for his 24/7 care.

I don't understand the creditor protection aspect, so can't address that point.
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:54 PM   #83
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MIL had paperwork in place, drawn up by her atty, for incapacity. Unless this paperwork is in place with trusts, a trust would not cover incapacity. I know my father's didn't as his trust only addressed financial issues. In the event of incapacity, we would have had to go to court.
.
If a halfway competent attorney drew up the trust, it would provide for a means to appoint a successor trustee, (perhaps even a bank trust department if need be) Again these things are not do it your self on the cheap things, but do need a competent attorney to be involved. The trust instrument could provide a list of successor trustees ending with any fdic insured banks trust department. The instrument would also provide conditions which would cause the need of a successor trustee.
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:06 PM   #84
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If a halfway competent attorney drew up the trust, it would provide for a means to appoint a successor trustee, (perhaps even a bank trust department if need be) Again these things are not do it your self on the cheap things, but do need a competent attorney to be involved. The trust instrument could provide a list of successor trustees ending with any fdic insured banks trust department. The instrument would also provide conditions which would cause the need of a successor trustee.
I understand what you are saying. What I'm suggesting is that a trust is not necessary in all circumstances. In MIL's it certainly wasn't and would have been throwing money away. She worked with her attorney and they set up the POD, TOD, beneficiary and beneficiary deeds perfectly. She did not need the complexities of a trust.

In my father's case, he refused to have the trust deal with incapacity and it was set up only for financial issues. Again, in his case, his trust would have been insufficient in the event of incapacity and with 3 children one of whom has a spendarina wife, a simple TOD would also have been sorely lacking both in the event of incapacity as well as the fighting that would have commenced upon death.
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Old 08-19-2017, 01:48 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
I think POA should work. How can a financial institution NOT accept a legal document? Maybe run it by them, find out what their requirements are.

I had trusts done years ago. Now that my kids are not minors, and have established careers and seemingly good heads on their shoulders, I'm starting to re-think this. Why not just set them up as beneficiaries?

-ERD50
how can a financial institution not accept a poa ? easy , like i said the more documents you introduce the more chance of something not being right .

New York State passed legislation effective September 2009 in an attempt to create a statutory form that would be uniformly accepted. This legislation was the result of tremendous abuse that was found in this particular area, with some appointed agents taking advantage of the disabled and elderly.

The new power of attorney law results in a much lengthier document, and significantly restricts the actual power given to the agent over financial matters. If transfers are to be made on behalf of the principal, a separate gift rider must be executed. The gift rider must specifically articulate the agent’s power to make gifts to himself/herself or to third parties. Further, any additional powers beyond those enumerated in the statute, must be added to a modification section.

Finally, while the law mandates banks, brokerage houses and other financial institutions to recognize the power of attorney, the form utilized must be statutory. if the form is not statutory, it does not have to be legally recognized.

like i keep saying , the more documents you introduce beyond simple beneficiary the greater the chances of grief with them
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Old 08-19-2017, 05:55 AM   #86
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I think we found a new "hot topic!"

Previous hot topics:
- Politics
- Religion
- Pay down mortgage or not

Now:
- Trusts vs TOD

I'm not saying that's bad, it is interesting though. I'm learning stuff. And seems people have good ideas on both sides.

In my experience, when Dad passed, the trust made settling the estate super easy. The accounts with beneficiaries were also super easy. The only thing complicated was when one of the beneficiaries was listed was the trust, and this caused a 2 step process. Still easy, just more processing.

So, I don't have a good answer. We currently don't have a trust.
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:05 PM   #87
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In my experience banks refuse to honor a POA and a POA dies with the grantor. Nice to have but basically a waste of time.

A well written trust authorizes the issue of a trustee (vs grantor trustee) to pay for the grantor's needs. Other than that, the trustee cannot use the trust's assets.
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incapacitation
Old 08-20-2017, 04:22 PM   #88
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incapacitation

Incapacitation could almost be its own thread
My Dad's trust states his Dr. has to issue a letter stating he is mentally incompetent. However, the doctors "test" consists of
* counting backward from 100 by 7
* replicating a simple sketch drawing
* asking what day/year is it
* and remembering 3 words given before the count-backwards-by-7 test.

Dad can "compute" just fine. He knows what day/year it is. His sketch apparently was "close enough". He could not remember any of the 3 memory words. He deemed to still be competent.

However.
*Last month Dad "donated" ~$2K to various scam organizations.
*He gets 2.5-3inches of mail A DAY asking for money... most of it in official looking envelopes. He opens it all, even if its addressed to "current resident"
(about every 6 months I have to convince him that the junk mail he received telling him the Obamacare legislation allows the feds to reclaim all of his mediCARE expendes when he dies is false.)
*His phone rings constantly with numbers he does not recognize and he will call them all back.
* Not to be political, but he is STILL sending $ to some group that claims to be trying to get Obama impeached.

I realize there are reasons for wanting to establish a threshold before somebody can take over your finances
BUT. If you trust your kids enough to name them to take over when its time, trust them to decide when its time.
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Old 08-21-2017, 04:10 AM   #89
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one other negative to vanguard i find is you cannot cancel fund orders . you get a message that once you place the order you can't cancel .

fidelity gives you a box to cancel and you can cancel right up to 4pm . i have done it a few times .

many times the markets reverse at the last minute .
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Tangential but pertinent to the discussion
Old 08-21-2017, 07:11 AM   #90
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Tangential but pertinent to the discussion

When I saw the thread title, I thought, "Ah, I can contribute to this thread." Please see below for the details (copied from a thread I started at the Mr. Money Mustache forum in 2014). At the time I was more circumspect about naming the company, but it's Vanguard.
------------------------------------------------
Feel free to read on for the details, but here's the upshot: Make sure the beneficiaries of your accounts know that they are the beneficiaries. Even better, provide them with documentation, including how their names are spelled on the account (i.e. full name or middle initial)and the account numbers, and contact information for the company holding the account.

Our experience happened to be with a low-fee provider, but it would not surprise me to learn that the same was true at all of the big money-management firms. I'll call the company LowFee.

My husband's mother and father died within a year of each other. His mom's estate took a long time to clear, in part because of one retirement account that she held at LowFee. The account was through the company she worked for, and she had it for about six years before she retired. The amount: $45K.

The estate attorney had no luck getting anyone at LowFee to discuss the account, so she asked my husband - the executor of the estate - to call.

So my husband called... and was told by the LowFee CSR that she could only speak directly to the beneficiary. He, the executor of the estate, had no authority whatsoever with regard to the LowFee retirement account. She would not tell him who the beneficiaries were, or even if there were two, a primary and a contingent.

The legal representative of the deceased is not recognized by LowFee with regard to the distribution of assets. Think about that.

He asked what LowFee did in terms of outreach to beneficiaries and was told they do nothing. NOTHING. If the beneficiary doesn't know he or she is listed as the beneficiary by the account holder, and therefore does not contact the company with very specific information in hand, including the account number and full legal name of the account holder, the company will not inform them.

He asked if the beneficiaries were listed anywhere, and she told him they were listed on the paper statement. Although now that he had notified LowFee of the account holder's death, they would no longer send paper statements.

My husband had just gone through a two-foot stack of paperwork - executing an estate is practically a full-time job - and he'd kept what he felt were critical papers and then recycled the rest.

So off he went to the recycle bin, where he plowed through the mess until he found Pg. 5 of 7 of the latest LowFee statement, which listed the beneficiaries. We were one piece of recycled paper from that $45K never reaching its intended beneficiary.

It turned out that the primary beneficiary was my husband's father, who had died a year before his mother. The contingent beneficiary was our niece - her granddaughter - who was eighteen months old at the time his mom named her the beneficiary. She's now 22.

We were lucky. We found the ONE piece of paper that gave our niece access to the money her grandmother wanted her to have. If we hadn't? Well, I don't know what LowFee would have done with it, but it certainly would not have followed the deceased's stated intentions.

How much money are these companies sitting on that will never be distributed? I thought my husband would pop a vein by the end of that phone call.

His mom had done what she thought was best: she listed her husband as the primary beneficiary, and then her granddaughter. Her own health was poor, and she did not think to change the beneficiary after her husband died. She didn't think to tell her granddaughter that there was an account with $45K that she would inherit... I'm sure she expected it would all happen as a matter of course during the settlement of the estate. But it didn't. And it wouldn't have. EVER.

So take it upon yourselves, investors and parents and grandparents, to educate and inform your beneficiaries. Don't expect any due diligence from the companies making money off your money.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:13 AM   #91
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Glad the OP brought this to light. Almost all our $ are at Vanguard and I haven't looked at our primary and secondary beneficiary selections since they were established years ago. I'll be checking this AM.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:39 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by begood View Post
When I saw the thread title, I thought, "Ah, I can contribute to this thread." Please see below for the details (copied from a thread I started at the Mr. Money Mustache forum in 2014). At the time I was more circumspect about naming the company, but it's Vanguard.
------------------------------------------------
Feel free to read on for the details, but here's the upshot: Make sure the beneficiaries of your accounts know that they are the beneficiaries. Even better, provide them with documentation, including how their names are spelled on the account (i.e. full name or middle initial)and the account numbers, and contact information for the company holding the account.

Our experience happened to be with a low-fee provider, but it would not surprise me to learn that the same was true at all of the big money-management firms. I'll call the company LowFee.

My husband's mother and father died within a year of each other. His mom's estate took a long time to clear, in part because of one retirement account that she held at LowFee. The account was through the company she worked for, and she had it for about six years before she retired. The amount: $45K.

The estate attorney had no luck getting anyone at LowFee to discuss the account, so she asked my husband - the executor of the estate - to call.

So my husband called... and was told by the LowFee CSR that she could only speak directly to the beneficiary. He, the executor of the estate, had no authority whatsoever with regard to the LowFee retirement account. She would not tell him who the beneficiaries were, or even if there were two, a primary and a contingent.

The legal representative of the deceased is not recognized by LowFee with regard to the distribution of assets. Think about that.

He asked what LowFee did in terms of outreach to beneficiaries and was told they do nothing. NOTHING. If the beneficiary doesn't know he or she is listed as the beneficiary by the account holder, and therefore does not contact the company with very specific information in hand, including the account number and full legal name of the account holder, the company will not inform them.

He asked if the beneficiaries were listed anywhere, and she told him they were listed on the paper statement. Although now that he had notified LowFee of the account holder's death, they would no longer send paper statements.

My husband had just gone through a two-foot stack of paperwork - executing an estate is practically a full-time job - and he'd kept what he felt were critical papers and then recycled the rest.

So off he went to the recycle bin, where he plowed through the mess until he found Pg. 5 of 7 of the latest LowFee statement, which listed the beneficiaries. We were one piece of recycled paper from that $45K never reaching its intended beneficiary.

It turned out that the primary beneficiary was my husband's father, who had died a year before his mother. The contingent beneficiary was our niece - her granddaughter - who was eighteen months old at the time his mom named her the beneficiary. She's now 22.

We were lucky. We found the ONE piece of paper that gave our niece access to the money her grandmother wanted her to have. If we hadn't? Well, I don't know what LowFee would have done with it, but it certainly would not have followed the deceased's stated intentions.

How much money are these companies sitting on that will never be distributed? I thought my husband would pop a vein by the end of that phone call.

His mom had done what she thought was best: she listed her husband as the primary beneficiary, and then her granddaughter. Her own health was poor, and she did not think to change the beneficiary after her husband died. She didn't think to tell her granddaughter that there was an account with $45K that she would inherit... I'm sure she expected it would all happen as a matter of course during the settlement of the estate. But it didn't. And it wouldn't have. EVER.

So take it upon yourselves, investors and parents and grandparents, to educate and inform your beneficiaries. Don't expect any due diligence from the companies making money off your money.
This is a pretty disturbing story - thanks for sharing it.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:54 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by begood View Post
When I saw the thread title, I thought, "Ah, I can contribute to this thread." Please see below for the details (copied from a thread I started at the Mr. Money Mustache forum in 2014). At the time I was more circumspect about naming the company, but it's Vanguard.
------------------------------------------------
Feel free to read on for the details, but here's the upshot: Make sure the beneficiaries of your accounts know that they are the beneficiaries. Even better, provide them with documentation, including how their names are spelled on the account (i.e. full name or middle initial)and the account numbers, and contact information for the company holding the account.

Our experience happened to be with a low-fee provider, but it would not surprise me to learn that the same was true at all of the big money-management firms. I'll call the company LowFee.

My husband's mother and father died within a year of each other. His mom's estate took a long time to clear, in part because of one retirement account that she held at LowFee. The account was through the company she worked for, and she had it for about six years before she retired. The amount: $45K.

The estate attorney had no luck getting anyone at LowFee to discuss the account, so she asked my husband - the executor of the estate - to call.

So my husband called... and was told by the LowFee CSR that she could only speak directly to the beneficiary. He, the executor of the estate, had no authority whatsoever with regard to the LowFee retirement account. She would not tell him who the beneficiaries were, or even if there were two, a primary and a contingent.

The legal representative of the deceased is not recognized by LowFee with regard to the distribution of assets. Think about that.

He asked what LowFee did in terms of outreach to beneficiaries and was told they do nothing. NOTHING. If the beneficiary doesn't know he or she is listed as the beneficiary by the account holder, and therefore does not contact the company with very specific information in hand, including the account number and full legal name of the account holder, the company will not inform them.

He asked if the beneficiaries were listed anywhere, and she told him they were listed on the paper statement. Although now that he had notified LowFee of the account holder's death, they would no longer send paper statements.

My husband had just gone through a two-foot stack of paperwork - executing an estate is practically a full-time job - and he'd kept what he felt were critical papers and then recycled the rest.

So off he went to the recycle bin, where he plowed through the mess until he found Pg. 5 of 7 of the latest LowFee statement, which listed the beneficiaries. We were one piece of recycled paper from that $45K never reaching its intended beneficiary.

It turned out that the primary beneficiary was my husband's father, who had died a year before his mother. The contingent beneficiary was our niece - her granddaughter - who was eighteen months old at the time his mom named her the beneficiary. She's now 22.

We were lucky. We found the ONE piece of paper that gave our niece access to the money her grandmother wanted her to have. If we hadn't? Well, I don't know what LowFee would have done with it, but it certainly would not have followed the deceased's stated intentions.

How much money are these companies sitting on that will never be distributed? I thought my husband would pop a vein by the end of that phone call.

His mom had done what she thought was best: she listed her husband as the primary beneficiary, and then her granddaughter. Her own health was poor, and she did not think to change the beneficiary after her husband died. She didn't think to tell her granddaughter that there was an account with $45K that she would inherit... I'm sure she expected it would all happen as a matter of course during the settlement of the estate. But it didn't. And it wouldn't have. EVER.

So take it upon yourselves, investors and parents and grandparents, to educate and inform your beneficiaries. Don't expect any due diligence from the companies making money off your money.
Note that after 3 to 5 years of no contact the account would be turned over to the relevant state and be listed in the unclaimed property register. So the company does not get to keep the funds indefinitely while the state might. So it pays to check states unclaimed property a few years after a death just in case something shows up. (one family member found an life insurance policy that matured when the deceased reached 100 that eventually went to the state for example.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:56 AM   #94
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was low fee provider vanguard ?
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:26 AM   #95
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If all or most of the funds a person has have beneficiaries listed when they die can these funds be used for expenses (i.e. Funeral etc) before being distributed? As an example there is $100k in an investment account that has beneficiaries listed and a separate checking account with $275 and no beneficiary. Can part of the $100k be used for funeral expenses?
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:29 AM   #96
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yes , they just need a death certificate
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:23 AM   #97
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was low fee provider vanguard ?


Yes
FWIW, we have small IRA at Vanguard and they bugged the heck out of us to add beneficiaries to the account, but it was easy to ignore. Keeping them updated needs to become an annual ritual. I opened a new account at a regional broker and had to beg them to send forms which eroded my confidence in them.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:20 PM   #98
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If all or most of the funds a person has have beneficiaries listed when they die can these funds be used for expenses (i.e. Funeral etc) before being distributed? As an example there is $100k in an investment account that has beneficiaries listed and a separate checking account with $275 and no beneficiary. Can part of the $100k be used for funeral expenses?

From my knowledge, no.... the beneficiary gets 100% of the account...
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:29 PM   #99
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From my knowledge, no.... the beneficiary gets 100% of the account...
Thanks TP
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:58 AM   #100
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Yes
FWIW, we have small IRA at Vanguard and they bugged the heck out of us to add beneficiaries to the account, but it was easy to ignore. Keeping them updated needs to become an annual ritual. I opened a new account at a regional broker and had to beg them to send forms which eroded my confidence in them.
We have all accounts (including Vanguard) set up paperless due to our travel and snowbirding. Vanguard pushes paperless, and it works well for us. I'm somewhat a PITA to them, as I still have year end tax info mailed to our P.O. Box. I mainly did this so that DD has something to remind them we invest there (a kind of annual paper trail reminder in case something happens to us). Vanguard occasionally reminds us that we are not "completely" paperless and conveniently puts that snail mail to electronic election for tax forms to push by after sign in - to get to main page (their PITA back to me).

Vanguard email's us annually to verify beneficiaries. Their/your main page (after you sign in) has an Update Beneficiaries link for doing it online.
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