Vanguard - last straw?

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldShooter I think we have apples and oranges here. I interpreted @overthinkmuch's comment to refer to the recent eliminations of trading fees, not to low mutual fund fees where VG led for years. Re "invented" my recollection from reading is that Wells Fargo gets credit for the index fund idea. One version I have read says that Rex Sinquefield was part of that. Later, he and David Booth went on to found DFA and to get very rich. I think that Bogle was possibly the first to offer an index fund to the public, mid 1970s, and it was an initial flop. A couple of histories Google just gave me: https://www.getrichslowly.org/history-of-index-funds/ and https://www.investmentnews.com/the-s...al-funds-69099

+1
It's mentioned but extremely important in 1960s, the date of the original unmanaged fund papers, the systems to make this happen didn't exist. Funds were extremely expensive to just to own as until the late 60s the ownership was tracked manually via spreadsheets. Cheaper ownership came as the industry added more systems to automate their business. In my career I saw many changes in how all fund companies serviced their customers.

Maybe we could go back to 1970 and enjoy the great services offered and see what it's like to walk uphill to work both ways in the snow while battling record heat waves.

If you asked a question about your investments and there wasn't immediately an answer from the limited data available your request went to "research" where people would comb through microfilm to try finding your paperwork. Maybe your paperwork was filmed and maybe it was lost.

[JoeWras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRG +1 It's mentioned but extremely important in 1960s, the date of the original unmanaged fund papers, the systems to make this happen didn't exist. Funds were extremely expensive to just to own as until the late 60s the ownership was tracked manually via spreadsheets. Cheaper ownership came as the industry added more systems to automate their business. In my career I saw many changes in how all fund companies serviced their customers.

My head just exploded when I imagined a smokey room filled with clerks at open desks, all with a big old paper spreadsheet in front of them along with the handy manual calculating machine.

Spreadsheet means paper! Ahhhh!

More pictures like this one below to tickle your imagination. https://www.vintag.es/2018/05/office...and-1960s.html

[OverThinkMuch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldShooter My recollection was that Schwab was the leader there and that VG was late to the party. Some Googling gave me this: Tuesday October 1, 2019: Schwab goes to zero, followed a couple of hours later by TDAmeritrade (https://www.npr.org/2019/10/01/76611...oward-the-norm) October 2: Etrade follows. October 10: Fido follows. (https://www.npr.org/2019/10/01/76611...oward-the-norm) January 2, 2020: Vanguard follows. (https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wire...ading-68035212) VG and Jack Bogle deserve a lot of credit for offering low-cost mutual funds but in this case they appear to have been an also-ran.

Wow, thanks for the correction - that is what I meant, and I was wrong about it.

Luckily I've already thanked Schwab by moving 1/10th of my assets there. Specifically Schwab International, which supports people with foreign addresses.

[OverThinkMuch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet Except Vanguard wasn't first..........

My apologies, I was wrong about that.

I only had a Vanguard account at the time, and this move fit with their overall lowering of costs. I think the article also mislead me, quoting something about this being such a small part of their business, they were okay with it being free. They did not mention Vanguard was following the lead of multiple other brokerages in that article.

Sorry for the confusion - the merged combination of Schwab and TD Ameritrade was first. (I just double-checked that merger, to make sure I didn't remember that wrong, too!)

[Amethyst]

I've been angry with Vanguard ever since they nagged us into accepting their new "brokerage" funds.

For some reason, we can no longer set up an automatic transfer of dividends from one fund (e.g. Total Bond Index) to VTSAX. No, now we have to remember to do an online exchange from the "settlement fund" every time there is a dividend.

Just one more online chore added to the daily pile.

[bobjas]

I did not have the need to contact Vanguard until today. It was not a pleasant experience. I tried to help my 19 years old daughter open an account online at Vanguard. They won't let her open the account online because she is the beneficiary of a 529 account I have for her. They want us to mail or fax the application form. Then, there is no fax number can be found. I went to their website and tried to download an application form to check it out myself and it always redirected me to the online application. That is really dumb. I tried to call them myself and found out there is no special number for flagship services anymore. That is fine, just waiting in the queue. Finally, this guy told me that there is no fax option.


Well, we both opened accounts at Fidelity and I am moving funds over. It is sad, I have been with Vanguard for more than 20 years.


I am not saying Vanguard is worse than the others, it is just not the same experiences I had before.

[RunningBum]

My son is in the process of transferring a 401K from an old job to Vanguard. He called, and got the option for them to call back. 30 minutes later they did call back, and he got it all set up with them. It's a little tricky because the 401K was set up with half in traditional 401K and half in Roth 401K but in one account. VG is splitting it into a Roth and a tIRA as we hoped they could. This was just a few days ago, and the money hasn't been transferred over yet, but so far it's been minimal headaches. So not everyone is having bad experiences with VG.

[Markola]

+1. I have been calling VG a LOT this year, mostly helping DM get her finances sorted. I find that if I call first thing in the morning, I often get someone directly. Otherwise, I leave my number and wait for the return call within an hour or so. I can tolerate this system, now that I plan for it.

I am not doubting the heartburn others are experiencing, though. It seems a function of the rock-bottom prices we expect from VG in their cut-throat industry. They are clearly evolving, so I plan to have patience and let the new-normal settle.

[Russ2020]

I called Vanguard last week and while waiting for a rep the call dropped. I called back and waited 35 minutes for the next rep. When he answered I explained to him not to take this personal but would one more basis point in expense ratio lead to better customer service. He didn't answer specifically but it seemed to me he was also frustrated with his employer. In the end he was helpful and courteous. I don't call Vanguard often. Do you all think one basis point would be enough to provide great customer service and would you be willing to pay for it.

[VanWinkle]

I have been with Vanguard for many years with 99.5% of my funds. I find them helpful but hard to reach. They answer my questions, but don't really address any other areas without a question first. My SO(engaged) that has zero interest in handling investments and is currently with a shark that has her with less than 5% equities and 82% of her assets in annuities. She has made between 2-3% annually over the last 8 years. We met with Charles Schwab to discuss moving assets. They are located near her home address so she would be able to sit down in front of a person to ask questions. I really don't need that focus, but would be willing to move my assets as well. No management involved and I made it clear we already knew about their low cost market funds. We are considering moving to eastern Tennessee and would be able to contact a Schwab office there if assistance is needed.

VW

[CoolRich59]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ2020 Do you all think one basis point would be enough to provide great customer service and would you be willing to pay for it.

Interesting question and I would give a qualified “Yes”.

I’ve been with Vanguard for appx 4 years, but rarely need to connect with them. So, their customer service - or lack thereof - isn’t an issue for me.

But, I am big on customer service. I shop at stores that are known for their customer service. My favorite local restaurant has good food and outstanding service. So, if I needed to interact with Vanguard more than I do, I would be willing to pay a little more to get good service.

[tulak]

I was on Fidelity’s customer service chat last week. They said it’s be 5 min and I waited 30 min before I was dropped. Fortunately calling them was a lot quicker. They said 10 min wait on the website, but it was only a few min.

Unfortunately they couldn’t solve my problem, but that wasn’t the reps fault.

[bobjas]

My disappointment over Vanguard is that they knew their system has issues. But, they don't fix it. They told me the reason that my daughter could not open an account online is because Vanguard has her profile from the 529 account when she was a minor. They told me their system does not like that, so they need the paper application. My daughter did not have the same problem with Ally where I had a custodial account for her.


Since I am transferring my funds from a Vanguard trust account to a Fidelity join account. Fidelity's form indicates that I might need the "Medallion Signature Guarantee". I called Vanguard to confirm. Talked to the Customer Service guy, then transferred me to the investment guy, then transferred me to the on-boarding guy. Each one the wait time is about 10-15 minutes even though they told me the internal phone transfers have high priority. Each one wanted to confirm my identity even the system already confirmed with "voice verification" - At Vanguard, my voice is my password. What a joke. The on-boarding guy was not sure if transfer from a trust account to a join account is allowed. He needed to put me on hold. Anyway, I guess we just need to get used to it.


I missed the old day, I just need to email/talk to my Flagship contact person for some answers.

[RetiredAt55.5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobjas I missed the old day, I just need to email/talk to my Flagship contact person for some answers.

You can still get that same level of customer service.

It'll only cost you 30 basis points (i.e., sign up for their advice service).

Not joking.

[bobjas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RetiredAt55.5 You can still get that same level of customer service. It'll only cost you 30 basis points (i.e., sign up for their advice service). Not joking.

Is that based on your personal experience?


I think I may have them manage one of my accounts.

[Ole Red 29]

i moved an IRA account from Charles Schwab to Vanguard recently. Went online to Vanguard to start the process. Vanguard's system was easy and quick to make the transfer by logging into Schwab's system through Vanguard and typing in what I wanted to transfer. During the process, the Vanguard system suggested I should contact Charles Schwab and tell them what I was doing in case they had any forms needing to be completed. I called Schwab and was able to talk to a pleasant lady about the process. She said I did need to fill out a form and she would email it to me. After I hung up, I wondered if I should stay with Schwab becuase of the quick and courteous service I received. Unfortunately, I soon realize the service rep I visited with had no idea what she was talking about. After she sent me the wrong form 3 different times, I gave up. Fortunately, the process I started through Vanguard was sufficient to make the transfer happen. I think all of these companies have good and bad service reps. What you get is the luck of the draw.

[Markola]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobjas Is that based on your personal experience? I think I may have them manage one of my accounts.

Yes, 30 basis points for AUM management and advice. It is called Vanguard Personal Advisor Services. 500K+ gets you an assigned advisor. Less than that and you get a new advisor from a pool for each call. My mother gets advice from the pool and the people are always high quality. We have 7 figures in the service and are very happy with the program and our assigned CFP.

[Koolau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markola Yes, 30 basis points for AUM management and advice. It is called Vanguard Personal Advisor Services. 500K+ gets you an assigned advisor. Less than that and you get a new advisor from a pool for each call. My mother gets advice from the pool and the people are always high quality. We have 7 figures in the service and are very happy with the program and our assigned CFP.

Since most folks do not have everything at (in this case) Vanguard, does the advisor 1) Know the client's other investments 2) Include those other investments in the advice?

I would hope the advice would not take the form of "You need to sell your other investments and transfer them to us." No idea on my part, so YMMV.

[Markola]

No, Vanguard is, uniquely, a kind of co-op owned by the fund shareholders, ie, me, and has never money grubbed, in my experience. Their models do count the amounts and savings rates in any external accounts and assume/expect that those will have similar asset allocations as the ones under management at Vanguard by, for example, having one’s 401k at w*rk in a Target Date Fund with a similar allocation.

[Koolau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markola No, Vanguard is, uniquely, a kind of co-op owned by the fund shareholders, ie, me, and has never money grubbed, in my experience. Their models do count the amounts and savings rates in any external accounts and assume/expect that those will have similar asset allocations as the ones under management at Vanguard by, for example, having one’s 401k at w*rk in a Target Date Fund with a similar allocation.

Wonder how they would handle MYGAs, PMs, I-bonds, GIFs, etc.?