Very Tough Choices ... Please Give Your Suggestions

[lazygood4nothinbum]

i'm not very familiar with this stuff and so probably i simply do not understand. the wife got $950k and on top of that she gets alimony? sweet deal. children cost $1,600/month? how do poor people raise kids? he just got zapped by all that and now he's looking to commit again? if it isn't love it sure is gluttony for punishment.

i'd be going back to the judge with my new employment status and have the courts cut out the alimony to someone who already has half the family's wealth. the judge could also look again at that child support and figure on public school instead of private lessons, you know, like the rest of us.

then i'd sell out, turn, walk and never look back.

an idiot cousin of mine got a similar sweet deal off her ex. poor guy's been paying $50k/year for 10 years. it all stops this year when their youngest finishes high school. coincidentally, she just fell in love with another guy and so is to remarry. never mind missing a beat, she won't even be missing a house payment. hmmm, maybe i do understand after all: you guys are whipped.

 

[jclarksnakes]

................you guys are whipped.

You say that like it is a BAD thing?? A friend of mine says he wishes he could learn to make love (he actually uses another term) well enough that he doesn't have to give away half of everything he owns every five years. In 1992 another friend of mine retired from the army after 28 years at age 60. He said he could finally retire after finishing paying child support for every month for 32 years. Four kids with four different women. He was a real slow learner and admitted it. We younger guys always went to him for advice about marriage and relationships....afterall he had been through it all plenty of times.
Jeff

 

[dex]

You say that like it is a BAD thing?? A friend of mine says he wishes he could learn to make love (he actually uses another term) well enough that he doesn't have to give away half of everything he owns every five years. In 1992 another friend of mine retired from the army after 28 years at age 60. He said he could finally retire after finishing paying child support for every month for 32 years. Four kids with four different women. He was a real slow learner and admitted it. We younger guys always went to him for advice about marriage and relationships....afterall he had been through it all plenty of times.
Jeff

I've often wondered how many men really wanted children. When growing up I don't remember any of my friends - males - saying; "I really want to have children."

 

[aida2003]

i'm not very familiar with this stuff and so probably i simply do not understand. the wife got $950k and on top of that she gets alimony? sweet deal. children cost $1,600/month? how do poor people raise kids? he just got zapped by all that and now he's looking to commit again? if it isn't love it sure is gluttony for punishment.

i'd be going back to the judge with my new employment status and have the courts cut out the alimony to someone who already has half the family's wealth. the judge could also look again at that child support and figure on public school instead of private lessons, you know, like the rest of us.

then i'd sell out, turn, walk and never look back.

an idiot cousin of mine got a similar sweet deal off her ex. poor guy's been paying $50k/year for 10 years. it all stops this year when their youngest finishes high school. coincidentally, she just fell in love with another guy and so is to remarry. never mind missing a beat, she won't even be missing a house payment. hmmm, maybe i do understand after all: you guys are whipped.

It sounds that only "guys" are commenting on this thread and I enjoyed reading it, BTW. However, because of this comment I wanted to say something. I'm a female, BTW.

We don't know these people personally (or how many kids they have and their age), but here are my thoughts.
I think Craig friend's wife deserved to get a 'sweet deal' (I could be wrong, but as I said we'll never know their personal life). Why?
She probably raised the kids all her life staying at home and never worked outside their home which implies she had no income. She's probably in her 50s. What chances does she have to find a reasonably paid job at her age without marketable skills (except babysitting or organizing parties?? <-- large house, ex had a 'C' job, they probably entertained people in the past).
It sounds they divorced not long ago and he already has a GF he wants to move in with. Might this imply some infidelity (even if not physical, but at least emotional) during their marriage that led to the divorce? She's at home with the kids in the evenings and he's on another coast with the GF?? It sounds unfair to me.
So, the wife of a man who had the "C" job, got a good lawyer and got a great deal. Good for her !! The alimony will end soon, but she still has to support herself in retirement.
BTW, a few months ago I read in our local newspaper a survey how much a SAHM would earn if she was paid? The range was $160k-$192k/year. So, it sounds about right what the lady "earned" in the divorce settlement .
--------------------------

Yes, it sounds to me they had a lavish lifestyle, but that's a different story in the past tense...can't get back what was wasted.

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Craig's question whether he could live with his GF on a pre-tax $5k/mo. in a paid off house. IMO, it's quite doable but depends on the location and their future spending habits.
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I'm curious how much the lawyer got in this 'sweet deal'?

 

[jclarksnakes]

aida,
...I apologize for being a sexist pig. It is just too bad that we men own everything and run the world. I too am betting the deal was real sweet for the lawyer. He probably got five figures for a couple hours of his work and several hours of the real work by hourly wage earners in his office. How many lawyer jokes are there? Only two, all the rest are true stories. Let's see now? In one post I have probably offended all the women and lawyers on this forum. I do have fun! I actually agree with most of what you posted.
Jeff

 

[Bestwifeever]

I read between the lines like Aida did....

Sounds like both the girlfriend and the lawyer will come out okay on this one if Craig's friend buys her house and she "rents" from him.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Might this imply some infidelity (even if not physical, but at least emotional) during their marriage that led to the divorce? She's at home with the kids in the evenings and he's on another coast with the GF?? It sounds unfair to me.

since we're playing with presumption, here's mine:

they met in college where they both majored in business. he was impressed with her ambition. after college they both sought fast tracks to high end positions. they fell in love, married and soon thereafter had a child.

throughout their relationship they discussed how they would make lots of money together and live the high life. they would travel, they would party and they would both produce the income to finance their love of this life. but she changed as her tummy grew. she started taking sick days and watching donna reed on daytime television. he tried to keep her on their business plan, that she'd keep working. they'd hire help to raise the child and take care of the house so they'd be free to continue enjoying the fun life that was once their supposed shared dream.

so she changes course mid-stream. their dream was never her dream. she only made out as if she shared his dream until she hooked her man. she never wanted to be a working mom. why should she. she deserved to be a kept woman. she deserved to be donna reed.

so the guy had to work even harder to make up for her loss of income. instead of remaining in partnership, he wound up working for she, the queen b*. she became arrogant in this, castrating her man at every opportunity. she took complete control over his children. he didn't have a say in how they were raised, all he had was a paycheck to deliver. in her state of entitlement, she stopped loving him in bed. he felt excluded from his own home during the day and during the night.

and now she wants even more. she claims that she should get paid a six figure salary for the work an illegal immigrant would gladly have done for mere living wage. she doesn't just want half of what is theirs. she doesn't even want to pay for her half of the childrens' care. she doesn't think he deserves his half. she ruined his dream but he ruined her plan, her donna reed fantasy, and he's going to pay for that even if he has to become so depressed that he commits suicide just to satisfy her.

there, she can have all his money now. satisfied?

 

[haha]

hmmm, maybe i do understand after all: you guys are whipped.

As in P-Whipped? I think you do understand.

Ha

 

[Zoocat]

Whether or not the wife "deserves" her sweet deal is totally irrelevant. Courts regularly award these amounts in division of marital assets, and alimony if the situation warrants it and if the total family income supports it. The law is the law.

All I can say is -- guys, if you don't like what happens in divorce, then read the fine print before you get married and have kids. Also have your spouse sign a pre-nup, if you can find a woman who is willing. Good luck.

Women can learn something as well. Young women are still wrecking their earning capacity by staying home with the kids and trusting that hubbie will stick with them throughout midlife to the end. But even if he sticks with you, do you still want him? Women file for divorce as many times as men do. Be smart.

 

[2B]

Personally, the only reason I got married was for DW and I to procreate. We did. DW stayed home with the kids and was promoted to "Love Goddess." Occasionally, she receives a brevit commission as "Goddess of Extreme Carnal Knowledge" but not as often as its offerred.

 

[Westernskies]

Went through a very similar situation 7 years ago. Against all advice from a lot of close friends I followed my heart, not my checkbook, and moved 1000 miles away to start a new life. Took it slow, made sure it really was the right choice. We married 5 years ago; second marriage for both of us, and the best thing that ever happened to me. Amazing how being comfortably in love changes your outlook on life.

Sometimes a fresh start is all it takes, and this guy definitely needs one. Living in the same house, in the same town as the ex , and unemployed? Get out of there! He has sufficent assets to survive in the short term, the rest of the pieces will fall into place with a clear mental attitude. His long-term well being is most important, he needs to look beyond the divorce settlement and start thinking about what he wants his life to look like in a few years. Then he can start to use his C- skills to plan and implement the steps required to get there. Having a happy, loving relationship with a supportive partner and living on 5K/ month is better than being miserable on 20K month, believe me.

I think that deep down he know that, and is really struggling with justifying the difference within his circle of friends and business associates. There will be some who are understanding and supportive; the rest will demonstrate the depth of their friendship when he moves on.

The first step is the hardest, we talked for months about how to make it happen. When 9-11 hit, I decided that life was too short to worry about all the fine details, and decided that day to push the issue with my employer- went in and told them "I'm moving, or I'm moving" We worked out a very fair settlement, I took a different position that made good use of my skills and tenure, but took me out of the top management track. It has worked for over seven years now, and life is a lot better away from the ex and the social environment we shared together.

But, big caveat in my situation- no kids. But they have already lived thru the agony of the divorce, so only he can decide what makes the most sense for his ongoing relationship with them.

 

[Moemg]

Nobody wins in divorce but one of the worst things he could do is rush into another relationship . He needs time to mourn the first .

 

[Westernskies]

Nobody wins in divorce but one of the worst things he could do is rush into another relationship . He needs time to mourn the first .

He is already in another relationship- albeit long distance- and if his divorce was like most, the marriage was dead long before it was officially recognized by the state. Time to stop mourning and start living.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Zoocat]

But, big caveat in my situation- no kids. But they have already lived thru the agony of the divorce, so only he can decide what makes the most sense for his ongoing relationship with them.

I've heard this reasoning before, as if the "agony" has a shelf life and just because the father (or mother) has moved on, the kids should be able to emotionally heal themselves too. It doesn't often work that way. My grown kids are still wounded by my divorce, five years later. They are doing fine in their lives, successful and all that, but the divorce has left wounds that are still raw and very apparent in some family situations.

I think that the person under discussion could do nothing worse than to move across country away from his children. Their feeling of betrayal will only be exacerbated when they become aware of his new relationship so soon on the heels of the divorce.

I understand that the party who leaves has already been through the emotional separation and probably doesn't understand the devastation left in the wake. It's my humble opinion that the effects of divorce are highly underestimated and diminished in importance by our society.

 

[Craig]

I'll Clarify a Few Things

Lots of interesting input, thanks.

They didn't live all that high on the hog, but someone hit it above ... the ex never contributed much to the marriage. She played at being a real estate agent, and usually lost money doing it. She had a college education, and later a paralegal degree, but focused on raising the kids, which has its own benefits of course. But ... it is expensive.

Even when someone is earning $200K+, after taxes and supporting three other people that don't work, it isn't as much as you would hope. And, their oldest child is seriously mentally disabled (mid 20's now, will likely never work), which also drove up costs.

The ex and children now live out of state, on the left coast, and he lives alone in the house in the SE. The house is full of memories, so that is an issue as well.

Yes, the marriage was dead for many years before the divorce. The ex did indeed become cold and controlled the children. As noted, she doesn't have it too easy either. Can't find a job, and she has tried. She has 20 months of alimony left, and then at age 59 she will have no income ... just the paid off house and liquid assets.

The girlfriend is an old girlfriend from 25 years ago. He had some contact with her before the divorce, but they weren't having an affair. She did provide some comfort to him at the end of a cold marriage.

According to the local attorney (who cost him about $15K) and others, his alimony / child support deal wasn't bad considering his income and net worth. Many are worse. Divorce is a killer.

On the house ... worth about $350K, needs some fix up to sell (new roof, interior / exterior paint), and the market is not devastated in his area, but it is tough. Very slow. If he puts the house up for sale, will probably take 12 months to unload. Monthly cost is pretty low ... $1,210 mortgage payment, plus utilities / maintenance / yard ... probably $2K in total.


Back to your responses ... I'd appreciate a bit more color on your impressions of his idea to live on $5K/month. Is it really doable? $60K per year appears a bit higher than the median family income, but would be one heck of an adjustment for this guy.


His real challenges are the sense of loss from giving away and selling so many of his personal possessions, his realization of how little he has to work with and show after this lifetime of work, and the perfect storm now of a declining economy / rising prices / lost job and disappearing severance. The guy has very few options left, and I know he is desperate.

 

[growing_older]

If kids and ex are already moved away, then I'm not seeing much advantage to keeping a big old house. Are kids ever likely to move back there? Sounds like they are not. It's just a museum of memories and likely not going to be very helpful to him to hang onto unless maybe it's a family thing passed down from his parents/grandparents and so on. Otherwise I think he should get out from under it asap, get some counseling and get on with his life. Has he no roots in the area? Maybe a clean break and move would be energizing. I'd still strongly suggest avoiding any commingling with GF. He's just too messed up to think straight.

 

[haha]

I think what we men need is a pharmacological temporary and reversible testosterone killer. So when we are about to do something really stupid, which is pretty much every day if I look at myself or any guy I know well, we could pop this pill for a few weeks and we would see our beloved Miss Universe as she might appear to a disinterested heterosexual female onlooker.

We could write down or record careful observations during this time. Behavioral quirks, unreasonable assumptions, overgrown expectations, emotional blackmail, etc. When we might decide to let the T kick back in we could read our notes. We should line up a bigger stronger buddy to beat the hell out of us if we seemed to be ignoring our observations as the T took hold once more.

Women sometimes joke about our testosterone poisoning. I hope that at least some of them sometimes don't quite perceive the full extent of it.

Ha

 

[Craig]

Known the guy for 20 years +, and I am one of his few contacts on a regular basis. We speak almost daily now. Some of my data may be off, simply based on my recollections of conversations over the years and recent.

Good point though ... I'm of course only getting his point of view. There's surely bias there that will distort my impressions of his reality.

 

[ProspectiveBum]

I'd still strongly suggest avoiding any commingling with GF. He's just too messed up to think straight.

I agree. Particularly with her having a high-school age kid at home, him turning into an instant step-dad would have its own emotional implications. Might be better to live separately and date for a couple of years until the younger son is out of the house, and then look at moving in together. That's likely what I'd do, anyway.

I know that he's burned out now, but a man with his experience should have no trouble at all finding a mid-management position that he could probably do in his sleep. He could probably easily make enough to support himself over the next couple of years while he gets his bearings.

Whatever happens, give us an update. Depression is no joke, and I hope your friend comes through this experience OK.

 

[Westernskies]

Lots of interesting input, thanks.



The ex and children now live out of state, on the left coast, and he lives alone in the house in the SE. The house is full of memories, so that is an issue as well.

Was wondering about that- it sounds like the kids are grown and not really a factor in the geographic decision...

Yes, the marriage was dead for many years before the divorce. The ex did indeed become cold and controlled the children. As noted, she doesn't have it too easy either. Can't find a job, and she has tried. She has 20 months of alimony left, and then at age 59 she will have no income ... just the paid off house and liquid assets.

The girlfriend is an old girlfriend from 25 years ago. He had some contact with her before the divorce, but they weren't having an affair. She did provide some comfort to him at the end of a cold marriage.

Ditto- that is exactly the reason mine worked out so well- I married the woman I should have married the first time around...

According to the local attorney (who cost him about $15K) and others, his alimony / child support deal wasn't bad considering his income and net worth. Many are worse. Divorce is a killer.

On the house ... worth about $350K, needs some fix up to sell (new roof, interior / exterior paint), and the market is not devastated in his area, but it is tough. Very slow. If he puts the house up for sale, will probably take 12 months to unload. Monthly cost is pretty low ... $1,210 mortgage payment, plus utilities / maintenance / yard ... probably $2K in total.

You can't put price on the bad memories...

Back to your responses ... I'd appreciate a bit more color on your impressions of his idea to live on $5K/month. Is it really doable? $60K per year appears a bit higher than the median family income, but would be one heck of an adjustment for this guy.

I would look at 60K as a short-term solution- yes,it's doable, but this guy has skills that he can leverage into significant income when he gets his personal life back together. If they can ride it out until his alimony is over (only 50K or so) then things will get a lot easier- he should be back to work by then or the new GF will be getting tired of dealing with a basket case. Moving would give him a fresh start and a different set of expectations. If he stays in his old locale, he wil be dwelling on what he is missing out on - instead of what he is getting.


His real challenges are the sense of loss from giving away and selling so many of his personal possessions, his realization of how little he has to work with and show after this lifetime of work, and the perfect storm now of a declining economy / rising prices / lost job and disappearing severance. The guy has very few options left, and I know he is desperate.

The new GF sounds like she has her act together- she is employed, two grown kids in school, has a house, etc. On paper, she looks a lot better than the ex...And, they have both been down the wrong road before, so they will both be committed to getting it right this time around.

I'd move to the new location, rent an affordable apartment close by, ease into the new relationship to make sure it's what he really wants. If they both decide they are serious about the change, they need to figure out how to start living within their combined incomes, maybe it's only the 5K/month to start- as their situation improves over time- kids finish college, he goes back to work, etc. they will be able to invest for FIRE... which is only a few short years away.. Where there is a will, there is a way.

In my humble opinion, the poor guy is basing a lot of decisions on the snapshot of his life he has in front of him right now- he cannnot comprehend the big picture- it is easy for us to say do this/do that because we have objectivity. He is an emotional wreck right now, and until he finds a way to fix that, the $ aren't going to matter to him.
If the new GF can help him through the emotional side, then he can start to address the financial. If she can't, then he will be dealing with a whole different set of issues a year from now.

I wish him the best. I've been there and it isn't easy.

 

[Walt34]

Back to your responses ... I'd appreciate a bit more color on your impressions of his idea to live on $5K/month. Is it really doable? $60K per year appears a bit higher than the median family income, but would be one heck of an adjustment for this guy.

Sure he can live on $60k a year. Lots of people do it. Buy food, housing, clothing first. Everything else is "wants". Key is being able to understand the difference between needs and wants. Lord & Taylor becomes K-mart or a thrift shop. The new Benz become a used Chevy. Few if any restaurant meals. Cook his own meals at home, brown bag lunch.

"...one heck of an adjustment..."? Cry me a river.

 

[aida2003]

so she changes course mid-stream. their dream was never her dream. she only made out as if she shared his dream until she hooked her man. she never wanted to be a working mom. why should she. she deserved to be a kept woman. she deserved to be donna reed.

so the guy had to work even harder to make up for her loss of income. instead of remaining in partnership, he wound up working for she, the queen b*. she became arrogant in this, castrating her man at every opportunity. she took complete control over his children. he didn't have a say in how they were raised, all he had was a paycheck to deliver. in her state of entitlement, she stopped loving him in bed. he felt excluded from his own home during the day and during the night.

This quote alone deserves a separate discussion.....like when it's OK for a wife to be a SAHM or when to continue working instead. I'd be curious to hear men's perspectives/opinions in such situations or what they did in real life and why and how it worked out in the end.

 

[Spanky]

Back to your responses ... I'd appreciate a bit more color on your impressions of his idea to live on $5K/month. Is it really doable? $60K per year appears a bit higher than the median family income, but would be one heck of an adjustment for this guy.

We are a family of four and living under $50K yearly budget. If he is willing to adapt a new standard of living, he can definitely do it. "Where there is a will, there is a way".

 

[aida2003]

They didn't live all that high on the hog, but someone hit it above ... the ex never contributed much to the marriage. She played at being a real estate agent, and usually lost money doing it. She had a college education, and later a paralegal degree, but focused on raising the kids, which has its own benefits of course. But ... it is expensive.

Even when someone is earning $200K+, after taxes and supporting three other people that don't work, it isn't as much as you would hope. And, their oldest child is seriously mentally disabled (mid 20's now, will likely never work), which also drove up costs.

The ex and children now live out of state, on the left coast, and he lives alone in the house in the SE. The house is full of memories, so that is an issue as well.

Yes, the marriage was dead for many years before the divorce. The ex did indeed become cold and controlled the children. As noted, she doesn't have it too easy either. Can't find a job, and she has tried. She has 20 months of alimony left, and then at age 59 she will have no income ... just the paid off house and liquid assets.

The girlfriend is an old girlfriend from 25 years ago. He had some contact with her before the divorce, but they weren't having an affair. She did provide some comfort to him at the end of a cold marriage.

According to the local attorney (who cost him about $15K) and others, his alimony / child support deal wasn't bad considering his income and net worth. Many are worse. Divorce is a killer.

On the house ... worth about $350K, needs some fix up to sell (new roof, interior / exterior paint), and the market is not devastated in his area, but it is tough. Very slow. If he puts the house up for sale, will probably take 12 months to unload. Monthly cost is pretty low ... $1,210 mortgage payment, plus utilities / maintenance / yard ... probably $2K in total.


Back to your responses ... I'd appreciate a bit more color on your impressions of his idea to live on $5K/month. Is it really doable? $60K per year appears a bit higher than the median family income, but would be one heck of an adjustment for this guy.


His real challenges are the sense of loss from giving away and selling so many of his personal possessions, his realization of how little he has to work with and show after this lifetime of work, and the perfect storm now of a declining economy / rising prices / lost job and disappearing severance. The guy has very few options left, and I know he is desperate.

Well, my assumptions were almost correct except for the first 2.5 sentences...but it's the past now ...let's get back to Craig's questions.

When you say $60k/year, what area are we discussing here? SF, LA, NYC or some rural area in South? If it's somewhere cheap, it's VERY doable, but the issue here is his prior earnings and lifestyle. It would depend on his personality also. One person can find liberating to work for much less $$ and stress, but another will seek a job to stay a 'slave' in order to continue his prior image with BIG bucks.

Also, like others said, I wouldn't jump to the next marriage again so soon. I'd get my head together first. Right now based on your description it sounds to me that the man is seriously depressed, he feels as if he's drowning now and as if his old sweetheart will rescue him if he moves in with her. Maybe she will rescue, but if not what's then?? In any case, I'm not competent to analyze relationships but I've had long distance relationships. It drastically differs when you communicate personally vs. virtually or on the phone. Anyway, if I were him, I'd proceed very cautiously. Move to the same town, rent an apartment, but I wouldn't move into the same house with the GF. They were sweethearts 25 years ago, people change, they expectation change and in addition to that she's got her own kids. Won't they cause some tension in their relationhip? Or how will their rapport affect the kid who's still in HS (that's a sensitive age, I'd say)?
I'd be slow, but this is just me.....

 

[limpid lizard]

WAIT!!

When I was 54 the ex ran off with the milkman. Eight months later my job pretty much evaporated, I could have worked for a pittance due to the changes in my retirement, so I quit. I'm now 56.

Unless he is the most together person on the planet, he is no where ready to make any decisions short of taking care of himself daily. Doing so would entail getting his finances in order and being able to function as an adult prior to dragging anyone else into his mess.

Providing non physical comfort in a cold marriage is commonly known as an emotional affair. This is just one more sign that he is not able to function as an independent adult.