Volker, Greenspan and Donner, Too

REWahoo! said:
And the only thing on the menu is SOS... :p

REW

REW: Believe it or not, that became (eventually my favorite breakfast). Which may explain a lot about mom's cooking. :D

But just any old SOS wouldn't do. Had to be the Marine Corps. style. I had the Army's and the Navys. No comparison.

Ours was so thick that the KP guy had to take a full swing to get it off his spoon and onto your toast. Um Um Good. :D
 
DanTien said:
I'm on the Boca burger diet... :p

Try Gardenburger instead--"flame-grilled" tastes best to me.

(Disclosure:  I own 1000 shares of this stock valued at about a whopping $70, with a cost of $150.  I liked how the burger tasted so I splurged  :LOL: and bought stock in it.  Silly, I know.)
 
ex-Jarhead said:
But just any old SOS wouldn't do. Had to be the Marine Corps. style. I had the Army's and the Navys. No comparison.

Hmmm. The USAF style wasn't quite that heavy. Guess the chow hall was just doing their part to help insure we could get airborne. ;)

REW
 
flipstress said:
Try Gardenburger instead--"flame-grilled" tastes best to me.

(Disclosure: I own 1000 shares of this stock valued at about a whopping $70, with a cost of $150. I liked how the burger tasted so I splurged :LOL: and bought stock in it. Silly, I know.)
flipstress - I'll help out and buy a couple boxes ;) I wonder who owns BOCA...Right now I really lay on the condiments...I'm able to eat their All-American :confused: Flame-Grilled meatless burgers..."We make BOCA Meatless Burgers with nutritious soy...today's smart choice for protein that has all the taste(of soy) you love, without the fat and cholesterol of a ground beef hamburger." :'(
 
ex-Jarhead said:
SteveL:  Those are times I'd like to forget.

I believe Burns was Fed Chairmen early on in those days, but "Big Paul Volker", in 1979 took over the reins, and allowed the interest rates to
rise to the above heights in an effort to kill inflation.  He was successful, after a helluva lot of pain. ;)

The rest is history.  We started the amazing bull run in both stocks and bonds, (1982) until present.

To go through that once in a lifetime is more than enough, but I am personally a little concerned that I may get "seconds on the chow line". ;)

Jar head--

        You have said a mouthfull in your own straightrforward way.  It was a helluva lot of pain, indeed.
Younger members on the board simply can't remember or relate to that pain.  I don't ever want to experience those stagflation days again.  Talk about a retirement killer!

        Volker was a classic Keynesian.  He believed that the way to deal with inflation was from the demand side.
If inflation is defined as too much money chasing too few goods then the answer is to cut demand.  How do you cut demand?  You sacrifice employment, drive up unemployment and cut demand.  Supply and demand come back into balanceand inflation is licked.  His tool for makinig it happen?  Dry up the money supply.  Unlike
Greenspan he didn't focus on interest rates.  He targetted money supply.   As the supply of money, the fuel of inflation dried up interest rates went through the roof and in to the cloud cover.  Volker watched it happen cool as a cucmber.  Unemployment, high interest rates broke the back of inflation.  A helluva lot of pain, indeed.

        Along came Reagan with his group of economic advisers who took a different tack at the problem of inflation -- the supply siders.  If inflation is defined as too much money chasing too few goods then the answer is to produce more goods.  More supply and supply and demand come in to balance and inflation is licked.  Their tool for making it happen?  Tax cuts and incentives for business to produce more.  Supply side has been the dominant theory for managing the economy since.  But I believe the supply siders have run out of room.  Our problem is not undercapacity.  Manufacturing capacity is being shuttered all over the globe, not jsut in the U.S.  

         If inflation re-ignites, which I kinda doubt, supply side solutions won't be the answer.  They are going to have to roll out Big Paul or his clone to dust off the demand side solution of strangling the economy by cutting the money supply, driving interest rates through the roof, jacking unemployment and wielding a mean monetary ax.
A helluva lot of pain, indeed.  But it will be retirees who will need that kind of medicine worst of all.  I vote for Paul Volker for next Fed Chairman.  I KNOW he will not dilly, dally with inflationary psychology.  He will kill it in the cradle.
The hard way.  To save us all a helluva lot of pain, indeed.

Donner


         
 
I think the tough medicine approach was right, but the 82 recovery might be more the result of the aftermath of the last big spike in oil prices. When the price went way up, there turned out to be a lot more supply, price of oil fell, and we had very low oil prices until the last three or four years. I wonder if the boom of 82 wasn't more due to the low cost energy than anything else.
 
We may need some Volker but I have a feeling we going to get some Snow in January. :-\


Dan
Veggie burgers are 9.00 a box here. We use half meat, half (heavy) tofu, and an egg to make semi-veggie burgers. Not too bad.
 
Make mine beef!!

Fresh hs grad in 1972, and ne'er do well for much of the 70s, I remember the first oil crisis in 73-73, followed by 10+ years of recession in so. Indiana, aka the Rust Belt. Things got ugly...

I remember buying a 10% 1-yr CD as late as 1987 or so.

Still doing the slice/dice/julienne, including 20% bond funds (TIP, short-term),  10% GLD/VGPMX/PCL/FRO, 10% RE (RWR/IGR), 10% LCB, 10% SCB, 10% MCSI/EAFE, 10% VEIEX, 5% SCV, 5% putz, and have 10% cash, and new money and divs to cash for now, to build cash reserve for more value/div purchases when stocks go on sale.  8)

Accumulation for 5-10 yrs still...  Not really RE, but should be adequately FI by then!!??  I feel good for sideways or up trend, but may adjust if "things get ugly" again.
 
mikew said:
Dan
Veggie burgers are 9.00 a box here. We use half meat, half (heavy) tofu, and an egg to make semi-veggie burgers. Not too bad.
I didn't realize how good I had it...SuperTarget - around $2.50 for 4 of my precious beauties....why don't you invite me over for dinner soon..I'll sneek out tell the wife I'm going out for more soy milk and burgers and I'll hop on over to your place...ah, eggs.... :)
 
Dan

There was an old couple who were 85 years old and had been married for 60 years. Though they were far from rich, they managed to get by because they watched their pennies.

They were both in extremely good health due to the wife's insistence on healthy foods and exercise.

One day they decided to go on a vacation to Hawaii, and on the way to the Islands, their plane crashed, sending them to heaven.

They reached the Pearly Gates and St. Peter escorted them inside. He took them to a beautiful mansion filled with the finest furnishings. They gasped in amazment. St Peter said; "Welcome to Heaven. This will be your new home."

The husband asked "Why?"

St. Peter said, "This is your reward in Heaven."

The old man then saw a beautiful golf course complete with club house and spa. The club house had the most wonderful buffet lunch spread out. St Peter told the man all this was his at no cost, after all this was Heaven.

The old man wanted to know where the health food was, St Peter told him that because this was Heaven you could eat what ever you wanted and never get fat. You never had to exercise or be carful of blood pressure.

The old man then looked at his wife, "You and your damn bran muffins, we could have been here 10 years ago!"
 
:D I know what my dreams will be made of tonight...
 
DanTien said:
flipstress -  I'll help out and buy a couple boxes  ;) I wonder who owns BOCA...Right now I really lay on the condiments...I'm able to eat their All-American  :confused: Flame-Grilled  meatless burgers..."We make BOCA Meatless Burgers with nutritious soy...today's smart choice for protein that has all the taste(of soy) you love, without the fat and cholesterol of a ground beef hamburger." :'(

Kraft owns Boca. Kellogg owns Morningstar Farms (used to be an independent that originally started to sell to the 7th Day Adventist market).
 
brewer12345 said:
Kraft owns Boca. Kellogg owns Morningstar Farms (used to be an independent that originally started to sell to the 7th Day Adventist market).
Wow....I didn't realize the big guys were involved already...Kellogg...don't they have Adventist roots? Either way, I go through a lot of mustard with these things...still better than Mooseturdpie though...
 
Morningstar corndogs are the best.... the dog is very dog-like! :LOL:
 
Marshac said:
Morningstar corndogs are the best.... the dog is very dog-like! :LOL:
Does it bite back? :) Thanks for the reminder..time to get out to the Mn State Fair...wonder if they have deep fried Tofu this year....
 
DanTien said:
Either way, I go through a lot of mustard with these things...still better than Mooseturdpie though... 
Yeah, the mustard, mayo, and ketchup help with the taste, as do lettuce, tomatoes, red onions, and sauteed mushrooms and onions piled on.  They all mask the non-beef taste until you get used to it.

Marshac said:
morningstar farms for me :)
I do like the Morningstar Farms breakfast links--no condiment-drowning needed!  I'll try out their corndogs.

Sorry to continue hijacking the thread, Donner.  I do read your warnings about the economy and appreciate them, but I might be just too naive to stick to my slice-n-dice mostly-index funds with some I-bonds.
 
flipstress said:
Yeah, the mustard, mayo, and ketchup help with the taste, as do lettuce, tomatoes, red onions, and sauteed mushrooms and onions piled on. They all mask the non-beef taste until you get used to it.

Sorry to continue hijacking the thread, Donner. I do read your warnings about the economy and appreciate them, but I might be just too naive to stick to my slice-n-dice mostly-index funds with some I-bonds.
Donner, I'm almost done, too..unless you had something to add to the handling of soy product

flipstress - that sounds like a real good pile of fixings...I won't be able to find the "meat" in it...actually just skip the soy :D
 
The House of Risk

Below is my little analogy/risk house that I thought up a few days ago.

But first a commercial :D: I agree that inflation is the real risk out there long-term. We keep printing and digitizing money like there is no tomorrow. Have been for thirty years at least. I believe that if we keep it up at the accelerating pace many commentators see we will end up going down like a ton of bricks—but probably much later in the future than we all imagine and also much worse. Inflation is the fear of older people, people who have saved money their entire working lives so that they can draw it down in the golden years. No one here has experienced how severe inflation really impacts people, although we did have a hint of it 1976-1982. Near the end of that time we really revved up the motor with loose money AND credit cards and many other forms of new debt. Wow, years of fun for everybody. Now we’ve reached the point where the debt bubble is ready to burst, in my opinion.

There are two sides to creating money: one side is simply creating it, printing it up or digitizing it; the other is how it is delivered to the users such as businesses and individuals. The gov’t ultimately controls both halves. Some of this money is delivered to us thru wages, profits, price increases, asset appreciation, etc.—all the typical, easily understood means. An increasingly large portion of this money has been delivered thru debt. We borrow from credit card companies, we release value from our properties, we borrow short to use long, we buy a new business with borrowed money, etc. This has steadily accelerated, especially over the course of our most recent mini-recession.

This excessive quantity of money, as most inflation experts know, sooner or later finds its way into price increases. Or, as A. Greenspan knows full well but lies about, into bonds when a better use cannot be found for excess money. This creates his bond conundrum.

The Fed and gov’t have in there wisdom determined that 2-3% inflation is wonderful. It greases the wheels of everything and everybody. People buy homes thinking 2-3% wage inflation will make making the payments a snap. An enticement for keeping this stuff going. Debt is good because I can pay it off with higher wages, the extra money I’ll be making. It’s a wonderful thing as long as it stays under control and returns on financial instruments return even more than the inflation rate. Wonderful stuff for everybody.

Until the wages stop going up, until people can’t make their debt payments. We are reaching that point soon—maybe. I’m hoping so. I’m hoping for a stock market and housing pop to bring people to a debt crisis. Then we really learn and experience something about the true nature and pain of debt—and, hopefully, use that knowledge going forward from that point. A rebalancing is needed soon before the serious stuff--hyperinflation--takes over the country.

We, of course, have another serious problem, 3-4 billion people that are willing to work for far less money than us. This right now is keeping middle class wages from rising no matter how much digital money/debt gets pumped into the system. As I see it, it’s a race between debt and wages. Debt keeps gaining to my mind. When/if we have another mild recession, I suspect whatever politician in office at that time is going to borrow the money to get us out of that future mess. More of the same, more money from nowhere, more excesses.

If the gov’t succeeds somehow in getting the money to us, then we just keep rolling toward hyperinflation—until that ends at some nasty point—probably in our lifetimes. I don’t want to be eighty years old with fifty million worthless dollars and smugly thinking I’ve got more of those thingys than anyone else—but no food, or meds, or working children to take care of me.

The excesses of money and society need to be sopped up at some point. It has amused me that our current administration takes a bifurcated view on this subject: Someone said “Deficits don’t matter.” out of one side of his mouth and out of the other came our new bankruptcy bill that basically says you can run, but you can’t hide (from your debt—it stays with you).

We can try to keep the game going by somehow getting more (and then more) money to the spenders/consumers thru false tricks. (Or thru real tricks like Katrina) History shows that this manipulation of money and hiding of real debt/costs in the future generation’s cradle always ends badly. We just keep sopping the excess money up with higher prices. Plus, sooner or later we inflate our way out of any type of stored value. Living standards fall dramatically as gas, healthcare, and food take an ever larger percentage of our income. A real stability of life is lost throughout the system—money. The alternative is to sop up the current excesses with a recession that sucks the liquidity, the excess money, out of the system now—in a controlled fashion—a managed or semi-managed recession.

My hope is a general awakening just after the bottom of a near-term recession, so we don’t have to go through the hyperinflation stuff. I’m hoping people see the craziness that they— and I—have been participating in. But I’m hedging a bit just in case I’m wrong—again. I don’t know how it will play out, what steps or stages it will take, or how society will react to it. I do know it is coming. :D End of the commercial.

So my investments are in a house, a five story house, a five story house with structural problems that I think I can judge fairly well as an amateur financial engineer. My guess is that the top two floors (2/5, 40%, DOW 6000) of the house may collapse in the near future, possibly wiping out some of my best friends. Of course, maybe the whole thing will collapse. But if that happens, there’s nothing for me to worry about—as they say.

So, where do I put my in-laws in this house? Just kidding DW. They can actually go find their own house. On the bottom floor I put my safest stuff: The precious metal shares, TIPs, I-bonds, some other commodity shares, and a little cash. These things are basically protection for the long term dangers of hyperinflation. They will wiggle and jiggle quite a bit if the upper floors collapse, a couple might even pop and go bye-bye before I need them--or don’t need them. I want them there if the worst happens. I also want them to grow larger and stronger if inflation is evident—to counteract the falling top floors. Normally, REITs and rental property would go here, but things are now so out-of-whack in that realm, to my mind.

On the second floor, I begin to store the safest income producers. For me this is short-term US and some municipal bonds—all AAA. And CDs. This is stuff that I can easily liquidate and then use to repair the top two floors if that is needed at some point or to buy more first floor stuff if things look like they are going in that direction.

Third floor: A little more risk and a little more dividend—but still mostly bonds and dividend paying stocks that will keep paying during dark times. The stocks have low or no debt ratios; I have cleared them for use as best I can, believing that payments will be made until the lights go out. They provide the basic necessities to people, things such as electricity, water, fuel, etc. The prices of these stocks will wiggle and wobble when crushed from above, but I hope they survive. I’ll buy more if the timing and prices are right.

Fourth Floor: The dividend payers that may have some growth opportunities built in, where I see a possible gain in our current market that is greater than the risk. But most of this stuff will be redeployed to the lower floors if I see the fall in sight. I have some investment real estate here—that stuff is not easy to move quickly. The risk-reward is baked into that cake. Not much I can do but watch—and have faith. But I won’t panic at an inopportune time because I know how this floor will behave under a collapse from above. I think I know what will pop and what will bend but hold.

Fifth Floor: My wild and crazy stuff. Who knows: Longer term bonds, growth stocks, whatever strikes my fancy and what may go very well or very badly in a variety of situations. Lots of activity, both up and down. This stuff keeps me interested and focused on timing and what the heck is going on in the world. It’s my play pen in the sky. I climb up there everyday to view the world and all the danger surrounding me.

Lots of working parts here. I look at each level and each component at each level and imagine how they will function if/when serious inflation or recession hits. I look at each part as it relates to the whole and what happens when the serious movement starts. Lately, I’m worried about stagflation too. This is my personal slice and dice.

Some people may have a two story house, a balanced fund comprised of stocks and bonds. It’s tough to watch this house to my mind because of the broad (protective?) nature of the beast. The bond portion contains a diverse mix of corporates, gov’t, foreign, short and long-term stuff. Tough to see the wiggles and wobbles as they happen. All one can do, oftentimes, is watch the price of the fund go up and down—thinking extreme diversity protects you, not a limited, more focused knowledge of a smaller number of components. Ditto with the stock portion. Good luck living blind in that house. Pay special attention to your CD ladder while the house whirls, flattens, billows, pops, and spins. Lots of different slice and dice methods. Many far, far better than mine.

--Greg
 
I hope the markets drop so Greg can rest easy  ;)

Can you change your name to GloomandDoom?
 
wildcat said:
I hope the markets drop so Greg can rest easy ;)

I don't know how he can live with himself. Never trust an amateur economist.

Of course, when these things fail to happen, they're always "just around the corner."
 
--Greg,

Just read War and Peace your "house" post, and my head hurts. What on earth do you do with all your spare tome time when you aren't thinking up all this....uhh..., stuff?

Please don't misterpret this question, but in your house, does your elevator go all the way to the top? ;)

REW
 
Greg, are you bored tonight? There must be something you can do to ease the pain.  :)

Ha
 
I agree that REITs are overvalued now.

I prefer a single level house in which each room is allocated for each asset class.
 
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