Wealth Accumulation

[FLSUnFIRE]

+1 At least that was my experience. Even though my ex-wife and I agreed on how everything was to be divided and I wrote our agreement with her signed confirmation and gave it to the lawyer to transcribe into "legal-ese" he managed to screw it up twice. I finally got him to write it up properly but it cost more. It should have been an easy few hours in one day to complete but he was either greedy or stupid. I'm not about to even consider any other reasons.
Divorce is difficult enough without lawyers trying to create more friction and "milk" the couple for more money to line their pockets.

Cheers!

I was lucky that we were amicable. We only paid the $400 filing fee. I prepared the agreement (erred a bit to much in her favor in hindsight) and real estate documents. Ex-MIL is one of those either in your tribe or an enemy and tried to stir the pot and cause trouble but fortunately my Ex stood up to her and put her in her place. Our agreement has a "non-disclosure" statement specifically so she wouldn't discuss with her mom. Divorce sucks but I feel like mine went as well as possible. I've known others that were bitter and only benefited the lawyers on both sides while causing both of them and their kids a lot of emotional and financial pain strung out over years...with continuing aftershocks.

 

[wmc1000]

Hard work, no pensions and didn't significantly start serious saving until all 3 daughters were out of the nest although I did fund a 401K for a few decades.

We didn't have all the toys or expensive fancy vacations but we enjoyed our life's journey, and raised responsible kids, now all married with 2 GK's each! We are blessed and feel very fortunate to have avoided any major financial blunders or have had catastrophic financial situations!

My $40k earned income working average while raising 3 DD's was low and DW was less than $10K average since there were mostly $0 years after kids were born starting in 1981. I was proficient enough to do most home and auto repairs through the years to save money.

Did save enough during the last few years or w*rking to retire without taking SS a couple of years before FRA. SS, pays all of our regular monthly costs, Whoo Hoo! The old saying, there is more than 1 way to skin a cat is so true.

Net worth including home at retirement was almost $1M with 25% of that as home value.

My father passed away in April of this year and did receive an almost seven-figure inheritance, but at age 70, it is really a pass on to our daughters through a combination of annual gifts until we pass and, hopefully, by then the house will also generate another pool of money to be split among them barring some catastrophic LTC scenario.

 

[Koolau]

Now that I think about it, that LeBaron was another debt, at the time. My uncle had sold it to us, soon after we got married, for a bargain price of $2,000. Only problem was, I hadn't paid him for it yet!

When I let the wife have it, it had about 90,000 miles on it. Some family members were annoyed with me, saying I should have given her the Dart, rather than the LeBaron, if I wanted to give her a car. However, I trusted the Dart. Even though it had over 300,000 miles on it, when it broke, I could usually fix it myself. Or, it was at least relatively cheap to fix.

Sometime around 1997, that LeBaron pretty much gave out, with around 110-115,000 miles on it. The a/c was shot, power antenna was broken. Transmission was leaking. Turbo was also shot. The head gasket blew, and she and her mother found a mechanic to put a used head and a new gasket on it. But it still wasn't running right. So I borrowed it back from her, and took it to my own mechanic. Turns out a bunch of wires and vacuum hoses hadn't been put back together correctly when they did the head, but on top of that, he did a compression check, and said that two of the four cylinders were really low. His advice was to not put another penny into the car.

Ultimately, I think the car died in her Granddad's driveway, which is where she was staying after we split.

The ex-wife ended up selling it to me for $90, a bit later, and she used that money for tickets to go see Faith No More at some place in DC called the 9:30 Club or something like that. Somehow, I was able to get it started (I think it just needed a jump) and we got it over to where I was staying, at my Grandmom's (thank God for grandparents!).

I ended up selling it for parts, and got something like $700-800. It still had a good body, and the interior was in nice shape.

As for the Dart, I had stopped using it as daily transportation in 1997, when I rescued a '79 Newport from the junkyard, which in turn gave way to a succession of newer cars, until I was finally able to buy a new 2000 Intrepid, in November 1999...my first brand new car ever. The Dart got used less and less, and finally, one day towards the end of 2001, it wouldn't start anymore. I think it was just the fuel pump, or even just a rotted line somewhere. If you poured fuel down the carb, it would run for a few seconds, and then cut off. By that point though, I had too many cars, and the Dart had over 330,000 miles on it. I let it sit, figuring I'd get to it "one day". When I ended up moving in across the street from Grandmom, I used another vehicle to drag it over there. That "one day" never came, and eventually I sold it, for $400. I think that was 2008 or 2009. The guy who bought it wanted to restore it. I got a text from him, a few years ago, saying he was still working on it!

**Edit: Oh, and I did finally get around to paying my uncle back, in the fall of 1999, soon after I put the down payment on the Intrepid. Better late than never, I guess!

Ah, yes. Car stories. There are a million of them within this group. Much more fun to talk about car stories than divorces!

 

[Humbooster]

I got a very late start working in this country ~ 30 when I got my first job here. My wife and I had a good rent situation for our first two years and it allowed us to save for a house. We drove old single payment cars always financed via the ATM and put every other penny into savings. Maxed out the 401K and was lucky to be in the right industry so the pay was decent. Eventually got a company car, that was a huge benefit for us. Kids got some scholarships to help with college and graduated first time around and loan free. No inheritance in our past and future but we are doing ok. I consider myself very fortunate and am enjoying retirement. Cant believe it has been almost five years now.

 

[yhoomajor]

Because theme of this thread is to share how folks accumulate wealth. I read a story today that is very disturbing, but related to accumulating wealth. Some folks accumulate wealth by working hard and investing smart and some by inheriting.

Then there is a good chunk of folks who just use (or abuse) the system to grow their wealth, literally overnight. While blue collar workers and other workers in society are doing back breaking and soul crushing work to accumulate even $1million, others just do it the way as described in article below.

Bit depressed after reading this article. Already wealthy people accumulating more wealth by stealing from funds meant to help struggling local community on-stage artists.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/entertainment/post-malone-chris-brown-nickelback-091401077.html

Some snippets from article:
"Nickelback, Chris Brown, and other stars scored $200 million in taxpayer funds meant to keep arts groups afloat during the pandemic. They won't say what they did with the money"

"The program, the Shuttered Venue Operators Grant, was a lifeline for the live-entertainment business. Administered by the Small Business Administration, it doled out $14.5 billion to institutions like movie theaters, ballets, operas, talent agents, performing-arts venues, and museums. Unlike the Paycheck Protection Program, which many venues didn't qualify for, the Shuttered Venue program was a grant, not a loan. Qualified applicants were eligible for up to $10 million with no obligation to repay it."

"R&B artist Chris Brown got $10 million. Rapper Lil Wayne got $8.9 million. Nineties rockers The Smashing Pumpkins got $8.6 million. Nickelback — yes, Nickelback — received $2 million"

"Applicants needed to get the SBA's approval on a detailed budget to receive a grant and to submit documentation showing how the money was eventually spent. (The agency denied Insider's requests under the Freedom of Information Act for records showing how the artists spent the money, citing an exemption for confidential business records.)

"But after they had the money, recipients were permitted to shift it around to different authorized uses, the inspector general noted in a report last year. It called the practice "concerning" and out of line with how the SBA administers other gran
Moreover, companies that contract with artists to support tours were themselves eligible to receive SVOG funding, raising questions about whether some companies were paid from artists' grants while also receiving grants themselves. For instance, two of the biggest sound-system providers for touring, Eighth Day Sound and Clair Global — which merged in 2020 — each received $10 million grants.

Insider contacted more than 60 grant recipients, including Clair and Eighth Day, as well as all of the artists named in this article, to ask how they spent their grants. None of them shared detailed information, and most did not respond."

 

[Henry Lili]

Because theme of this thread is to share how folks accumulate wealth. I read a story today that is very disturbing, but related to accumulating wealth. Some folks accumulate wealth by working hard and investing smart and some by inheriting.

Then there is a good chunk of folks who just use (or abuse) the system to grow their wealth, literally overnight. While blue collar workers and other workers in society are doing back breaking and soul crushing work to accumulate even $1million, others just do it the way as described in article below.

Bit depressed after reading this article. Already wealthy people accumulating more wealth by stealing from funds meant to help struggling local community on-stage artists.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/entertainment/post-malone-chris-brown-nickelback-091401077.html

Some snippets from article:
"Nickelback, Chris Brown, and other stars scored $200 million in taxpayer funds meant to keep arts groups afloat during the pandemic. They won't say what they did with the money"

"The program, the Shuttered Venue Operators Grant, was a lifeline for the live-entertainment business. Administered by the Small Business Administration, it doled out $14.5 billion to institutions like movie theaters, ballets, operas, talent agents, performing-arts venues, and museums. Unlike the Paycheck Protection Program, which many venues didn't qualify for, the Shuttered Venue program was a grant, not a loan. Qualified applicants were eligible for up to $10 million with no obligation to repay it."

"R&B artist Chris Brown got $10 million. Rapper Lil Wayne got $8.9 million. Nineties rockers The Smashing Pumpkins got $8.6 million. Nickelback — yes, Nickelback — received $2 million"

"Applicants needed to get the SBA's approval on a detailed budget to receive a grant and to submit documentation showing how the money was eventually spent. (The agency denied Insider's requests under the Freedom of Information Act for records showing how the artists spent the money, citing an exemption for confidential business records.)

"But after they had the money, recipients were permitted to shift it around to different authorized uses, the inspector general noted in a report last year. It called the practice "concerning" and out of line with how the SBA administers other gran
Moreover, companies that contract with artists to support tours were themselves eligible to receive SVOG funding, raising questions about whether some companies were paid from artists' grants while also receiving grants themselves. For instance, two of the biggest sound-system providers for touring, Eighth Day Sound and Clair Global — which merged in 2020 — each received $10 million grants.

Insider contacted more than 60 grant recipients, including Clair and Eighth Day, as well as all of the artists named in this article, to ask how they spent their grants. None of them shared detailed information, and most did not respond."

I've noticed the abuse of federal COVID money. Without too many details I find it amazing that two restaurant owners I know sold and are now retired,, young. I thought the restaurant biz was slammed lol. One other bought a penthouse in the center of town. A friend in the insurance biz (owner) got COVID funds; that biz never shut down, btw. Now owns three high end EVs and a place a block from the beach. Wow.

 

[jimbee]

Kept working, even when I hated it. Saved as much as I could. Better off now than I've ever been.

 

[Koolau]

Because theme of this thread is to share how folks accumulate wealth. I read a story today that is very disturbing, but related to accumulating wealth. Some folks accumulate wealth by working hard and investing smart and some by inheriting.

Then there is a good chunk of folks who just use (or abuse) the system to grow their wealth, literally overnight. While blue collar workers and other workers in society are doing back breaking and soul crushing work to accumulate even $1million, others just do it the way as described in article below.

Bit depressed after reading this article. Already wealthy people accumulating more wealth by stealing from funds meant to help struggling local community on-stage artists.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/entertainment/post-malone-chris-brown-nickelback-091401077.html

Some snippets from article:
"Nickelback, Chris Brown, and other stars scored $200 million in taxpayer funds meant to keep arts groups afloat during the pandemic. They won't say what they did with the money"

"The program, the Shuttered Venue Operators Grant, was a lifeline for the live-entertainment business. Administered by the Small Business Administration, it doled out $14.5 billion to institutions like movie theaters, ballets, operas, talent agents, performing-arts venues, and museums. Unlike the Paycheck Protection Program, which many venues didn't qualify for, the Shuttered Venue program was a grant, not a loan. Qualified applicants were eligible for up to $10 million with no obligation to repay it."

"R&B artist Chris Brown got $10 million. Rapper Lil Wayne got $8.9 million. Nineties rockers The Smashing Pumpkins got $8.6 million. Nickelback — yes, Nickelback — received $2 million"

"Applicants needed to get the SBA's approval on a detailed budget to receive a grant and to submit documentation showing how the money was eventually spent. (The agency denied Insider's requests under the Freedom of Information Act for records showing how the artists spent the money, citing an exemption for confidential business records.)

"But after they had the money, recipients were permitted to shift it around to different authorized uses, the inspector general noted in a report last year. It called the practice "concerning" and out of line with how the SBA administers other gran
Moreover, companies that contract with artists to support tours were themselves eligible to receive SVOG funding, raising questions about whether some companies were paid from artists' grants while also receiving grants themselves. For instance, two of the biggest sound-system providers for touring, Eighth Day Sound and Clair Global — which merged in 2020 — each received $10 million grants.

Insider contacted more than 60 grant recipients, including Clair and Eighth Day, as well as all of the artists named in this article, to ask how they spent their grants. None of them shared detailed information, and most did not respond."

I'm gonna shock you and say that none of this shocks me! If I go any further, Porky will rear his ugly rear. SO, returning you now...

 

[Gallaher]

Inheritance? What a concept!

Worked my way through State college. Got lousy grades but graduated.
Always sought high paying jobs others avoided…(sales jobs).
Saved, got promoted, got married, never got divorced.
Adopted three kids from the state (siblings). It’s a God thing.
Had our own kids. Incidentally, nature dominates nurture. All kids had same opportunities but the outcome has been strikingly different.

Corporate sales, sales management for 35 years. Never loved it. Always knew they could/downsize me at any time.
They did downsize me at 57. So I retired $2 million in savings another million in real estate. Five years later $3.5 in total assets.
The last 30 years always gave 10%+ to charity annually, faith based.
Expect to give half to charity balance to kids on our demise.
I feel blessed.

 

[Qs Laptop]

I'm the combo platter.

Where I got my wealth and the percentages (estimates).

Worked for megacorp for 10 years in the 80's. 401k and pension (took as lump sum this year). 5%

Started my own business and have run that for the past 33 years. Money invested in 401k plan. 10%

Investments in both taxable accounts and personal IRA's, both trad and Roth, for both myself and my wife: Hard to know for sure but guessing, 65%.

Inheritance, 20%.

I've started the process of preparing to sell my company. I figure when that money is realized and added into the totals, it will 20% of the total wealth.

 

[Koolau]

I've started the process of preparing to sell my company. I figure when that money is realized and added into the totals, it will 20% of the total wealth.

DW and I heard (and then confirmed) it's a lot easier to get into business than it is to get out of it. We showed our figures to a prospective buyer and their response was: "I'm gonna invest my own money and start from scratch. You can sell to someone else." Guess what? She started the business. She did reasonably well. Then her husband got sick. She couldn't sell the business and simply shuttered it.

We did sell to a niece who was crazy enough to buy it (at a very favorable price.) She has done very well with it but is already thinking about retirement - and how to sell out. Hope she doesn't have to shutter it after almost 80 years. I guess we'll see because YMMV.

 

[Gumby]

Interesting study from Dave Ramsey about, among other things, the top 5 careers for millionaires. In order, they are engineer, accountant, teacher, management, and attorney.

https://cdn.ramseysolutions.net/med...x1SHhtOFJpTm5WSzc1V05HQ0ExMHJpN2s5ZXclM0QlM0Q.

He added when discussing the study on the radio "you can’t earn your way out of stupidity." https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/cant-outearn-stupidity-dave-ramsey-110000008.html

 

[Koolau]

Interesting study from Dave Ramsey about, among other things, the top 5 careers for millionaires. In order, they are engineer, accountant, teacher, management, and attorney.

https://cdn.ramseysolutions.net/med...x1SHhtOFJpTm5WSzc1V05HQ0ExMHJpN2s5ZXclM0QlM0Q.

He added when discussing the study on the radio "you can’t earn your way out of stupidity." https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/cant-outearn-stupidity-dave-ramsey-110000008.html

I understand the gist of the articles. Just like most of us here who "got rich slowly," the featured millionaires saved regularly and lived like the Millionaire Next Door.



Top of the 2nd article suggests that teachers do better than doctors at becoming millionaires. My first thought. Teachers have one of the strongest - most plugged in unions on the planet. Doctors generally are not unionized. So teachers receive amazing pensions while doctors, generally, do not. YMMV

 

[LateToFIRE]

Interesting study from Dave Ramsey about, among other things, the top 5 careers for millionaires. In order, they are engineer, accountant, teacher, management, and attorney.

https://cdn.ramseysolutions.net/med...x1SHhtOFJpTm5WSzc1V05HQ0ExMHJpN2s5ZXclM0QlM0Q.

He added when discussing the study on the radio "you can’t earn your way out of stupidity." https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/cant-outearn-stupidity-dave-ramsey-110000008.html

The article and survey, or rather his interpretation of the survey, seemed like an exercise in twisting statistics to fit a narrative.

Some of the comments with the article were more thoughtful. For example:

"Son of a teacher, husband of a physician. The article seems to imply that a lot of teachers become millionaires, and that is hardly true. What gets them up in the top bin is that there are just so many of them. There are very few doctors, relatively speaking... "

DW was a teacher and so I do know a few teachers who are [very likely] net worth millionaires, usually a combo of: (A) two earner household, often where spouse is a higher earner or business owner (that'd be us as well as BIL/SIL), (B) able to turbocharge income with side gigs like tutoring (for which well-to-do parents are willing to pay a fortune), (C) utilized their above-average amount of non-work hours on a lot of DIY to minimize expenses, (D) mastered the art of LBYM, and/or (E) Were boosted by family money or inheritance. I should add another unusual category - bought a home in a gentrifying area - a few of my MegaCity neighbors were teachers who bought buildings when the area was crap, still living modestly, but sitting on multi-millions in gains.

 

[LateToFIRE]

I understand the gist of the articles. Just like most of us here who "got rich slowly," the featured millionaires saved regularly and lived like the Millionaire Next Door.



Top of the 2nd article suggests that teachers do better than doctors at becoming millionaires. My first thought. Teachers have one of the strongest - most plugged in unions on the planet. Doctors generally are not unionized. So teachers receive amazing pensions while doctors, generally, do not. YMMV

While I mostly agree with your statement, having a great pension in and of itself doesn't explain why someone would become a millionaire or not [excluding the capitalized pension amount]. I think law of big numbers - quick goog search reveals there are about 4-5x more teachers than doctors in the U.S. So first, there are simply more teachers. Second, the survey doesn't say anything about household income (i.e. spouse) - I know a lot of teachers married to doctors and other high income professionals (DW being a prime example).

IMO, notwithstanding the stress, responsibility, and time outside the classroom needed for prep, I think the lifestyle lends itself to LBYM, more non-work hours/days for DIY, more time for well-paying side gigs like tutoring, and far greater job stability than the norm (enabling a spouse to potentially pursue higher risk, higher income potential work).

 

[Gumby]

If I recall correctly, The Millionaire Next Door divided the wealth accumulation process into "offense" (making money) and "defense" (not spending money). Teachers and auctioneers were the world champions on defense.

 

[Markola]

Really enjoying this inspiring thread.

Transformational, high market signal resources on my journey, which was just working a nonprofit fundraising profession and saving like no one I knew in real life:

1) Thumbing through as a teenager my realtor mother’s book of nothing but compound interest tables and thinking “Holy Crap! Capital+time+interest is a super power! How do I get some capital?”

2) The Millionaire Next Door in my 20s.

3) Dave Ramsey’s Total Money Makeover in my 30s.

4) Everything John Bogle wrote.

5) Late 40s discovery of the FIRE blogging community, best encapsulated by JL Collins’ blog and his book “The Simple Path to Wealth.”

6) In my 50s, the first ten or so episodes of Robert Breedlove’s podcast “What Is Money?”, which are also known collectively as The Michael Saylor Series.

 

[LateToFIRE]

If I recall correctly, The Millionaire Next Door divided the wealth accumulation process into "offense" (making money) and "defense" (not spending money). Teachers and auctioneers were the world champions on defense.

Funny, that's exactly how DW and I thought about it (before I read MND). There's a lot of good wisdom in that book, much as I believe the stats to be distorted to fit the message.

 

[Markola]

Funny, that's exactly how DW and I thought about it (before I read MND). There's a lot of good wisdom in that book, much as I believe the stats to be distorted to fit the message.

That’s a canonical book, so kindly justify your critique.

 

[LateToFIRE]

That’s a canonical book, so kindly justify your critique.

Been awhile since I've engaged in this debate and I'm a bit rusty on the statistical method so won't go there. But, let's just say that the first book didn't make it clear that the author was focusing on a certain type of entry-level millionaire - he gave the impression that all millionaires fit his modest profile. So, I found myself scratching my head on that - I know lots of wealthy people who do not fit the MND profile.

Later books, clarified this issue a bit more. Well, turns out there actually are plenty of millionaires that drive fancy cars, live in big houses, and drink top shelf liquor. I know it was painful for the author (or maybe it was his daughter that wrote the last of the series) to admit that.

 

[Gumby]

To be fair, the book was self admittedly about the "millionaire next door", not all millionaires. It was for ordinary people not born to wealth (or professional class athletic or show business skills etc.) and was devoted to the message that those ordinary people could potentially achieve wealth through work, LBYM and prudent investing. There have always been really rich people living really large. It was not about them.

 

[Kings over Queens]

Interesting thread and thoughtful responses.

I commented recently, after contemplating how or why I'd been so "fortunate," (I suffer imposter syndrome) and said "I got up and worked, every day." It's really that simple.

Started working as a teen, then into the family business 2 weeks after gradating HS in 1985. Bought it (with partners) in 1993. Purchased my first IRA at 19 but really didn't start saving in 401k until early 30's. Hit 100k at 35.

Bought partners out in 2001. Refi'd house to purchase office building for business. Now I own the business and the real estate. Took modest salary, put wife on payroll for 401k (we both maxed out) and paid myself rent. Saved as much as we could and lived lean, no vacations (I was always working), didn't eat out (raising 3 kids) and did the best we could. Frugal.

Sold/merged business in 2015 with an emerging company and insisted on stock instead of all cash. The company has grown exponentially and is now international and my 185k investment is valued (internally) at 1.8 and who knows what happens if/when we go public.

Steady work, steady savings, some ballsy investments, and time. Didn't happen overnight.

No inheritance.

 

[LateToFIRE]

To be fair, the book was self admittedly about the "millionaire next door", not all millionaires. It was for ordinary people not born to wealth (or professional class athletic or show business skills etc.) and was devoted to the message that those ordinary people could potentially achieve wealth through work, LBYM and prudent investing. There have always been really rich people living really large. It was not about them.

Maybe I'm kinda thick, but it took me awhile to fully understand that the author was talking about a very specific type of wealth. IMO, the language was much broader than that - or at least a lot of people interpreted it to mean something much broader than what might have been intended [real millionaires are low key, people acting rich are just pretending]. Ordinary people not born to wealth can also be millionaires - AND - engage in conspicuous consumption. The two things are not mutually exclusive. They don't have to be "really rich" just really high income. Is there really anything morally wrong with that if it doesn't endanger their financial stability? I just think that MND (and others of the same genre) are more about a certain cultural anti-materialism narrative than they are about facts.

P.S. For the record, I think the teachings of MND are far more beneficial to the general public than not. It's a lot more feasible for the average person to become a millionaire by LBYM, than by making a lot of money.

 

[Gumby]

... I commented recently, after contemplating how or why I'd been so "fortunate," (I suffer imposter syndrome) and said "I got up and worked, every day." It's really that simple. ....

I think it was Woody Allen who said that "90% of success is just showing up." I would add that another 9% is attributable to not being a sissy. Only about 1% is due to talent. Nothing I've done in my life required me to be a genius. It just required dedication and perseverance. I tolerated conditions others weren't willing to tolerate, took on challenges that others weren't willing to take on and devoted the time to succeed that other people wouldn't devote. That's it. That's my recipe for being "fortunate".

 

[LateToFIRE]

I think it was Woody Allen who said that "90% of success is just showing up." I would add that another 9% is attributable to not being a sissy. Only about 1% is due to talent. Nothing I've done in my life required me to be a genius. It just required dedication and perseverance. I tolerated conditions others weren't willing to tolerate, took on challenges that others weren't willing to take on and devoted the time to succeed that other people wouldn't devote. That's it. That's my recipe for being "fortunate".

+1