What does it mean to be a professional?

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al in Ohio Each State Professional Engineering association as well the National Society of Professional Engineers has a copyright on the term "ENGINEER" in the job title. They require a standard (4-year min BS in an accredited approved engineering college program AND to pass an 8 hour test with a 75 or higher score AND then work as a agreed engineer for a minimum of 5 years UNDER direct supervision of a registered PE and THEN pass another full 8 hour test with a minimum of 75% correct score. then you walk the aisle and get certified as a LICENSED professional engineer. Prior to passing the last test they are officially just an “Engineer” if they accomplished everything else except the last test. No one else can use the term engineer. If they do it’s simply as illegal as Joe Shmoe using the title medical doctor. IF anyone used the title "ENGINEER" as any word in a job title without having done the above both the individual and the COMPANY involved can be sued and fined. Someone just needs to rat them out.

Not my experience at all, or the experience of many I know at Megacorps all over the US.

I think you are misapplying the term. It's true that a non-PE licensed engineer (by degree and/or company title) cannot legally do things that a licensed Professional Engineer can do. That could/should get them in trouble . But the work wouldn't have the PE stamp, so other than fraud (either the non PE using another person's PE stamp, or the PE using a non-PE to do the work and not checking it), I don't see how this would happen.

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Originally Posted by Al in Ohio I know of several instances during my career when the Ohio Dept. of PE licensure was notified of a non degreed designer using the job title “Electrical Engineer” and the company was fined $500 and the employee and company had to take the word “engineer” out of the job title. The employee had to sign something to promise never to use the term engineer again, nor could they ever apply to become an engineer in Ohio in the future. Not doing so, would have incurred worse fines etc. Repeated infractions by the same company can cause them to lose ability to design for profit.

That may have happened where you worked, but it isn't common at all in the wider industry. They would have had to fine/demote thousands of Engineers at my Megacorp. Having a PE at my Megacorp wasn't all that common. Other than pumping the resume, and being able to testify in court, it didn't really add much. That is different for construction type projects, where a PE is required for many things. And I personally know of at least two non BS Engineers who had the title of Staff Engineer at a very high tech Megacorp. And you probably would not have some of the consumer electronics products you have today!

Yes, I think your view is far too narrow.

-ERD50

[ERD50]

Putting a finer point on this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al in Ohio Each State Professional Engineering association as well the National Society of Professional Engineers has a copyright on the term "ENGINEER" in the job title. .... IF anyone used the title "ENGINEER" as any word in a job title without having done the above both the individual and the COMPANY involved can be sued and fined. Someone just needs to rat them out.

Can you provide a reference for this? It makes no sense to me. In fact, even the National Society of Professional Engineers web site seems to conflict on this:

emph mine

Quote:

To become licensed, engineers must complete a four-year college degree, work under a Professional Engineer for at least four years, pass two intensive competency exams and earn a license from their state's licensure board. Then, to retain their licenses, PEs must continually maintain and improve their skills throughout their careers.

So if they can't use the term "engineer' w/o a PE, then how can an 'engineer' work towards a PE? They would have to be non-engineers prior to obtaining their PE.

It would be like the electricians union, where you are an apprentice or journeyman first, then a licensed electrician. Legally, you'd say you are an "apprentice electrician". But non-PE engineers do not use such restrictive words.

-ERD50

[skyking1]

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Originally Posted by Ronstar I agree with this ^. I'm not sure about No 2 though. Is a retired professional still a professional? Or does a professional cease being a professional when they no longer work in a particular profession?

If there are continuing education requirements and a person chooses to keep them up, then my take is yes, still a professional.
If they walk away then no, why would you clutch that last little vestige of work?

[CRLLS]

The last place I used to work for had all kinds of job titles with the word "engineer" in them. I personally held the job title of Manufacturing Engineer, Design Engineer, Process Engineer, Project Engineer and Sr Design Engineer. I often was at the top of my pay scale and was switched around to whatever title was that year's favorite Engineer title with a higher play grade. BTW, I have no formal degree. However, nobody could have the word "Engineer" on their business cards unless they held a PE license.

As for PE licenses, early in my career, I could have both tested for, and received a license without having a BS degree. I had thought of doing so just for the fun of it. I knew I would have passed. I had no actual reason to use the PE title. In the end, I decided to not take the test. I didn't need the title to be self-confident in my abilities. Now, in at least my state, a BS is a prerequisite for taking the PE test.

Nikola Tesla, Henry Ford and Thomas Edison, to name just a few, did not hold college degrees. The Wright Bros. didn't even complete High School. By some people here, these prolific inventors were not even professionals, let alone engineers. I say, "Bah, Humbug!"

[dunkelblau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 That may have happened where you worked, but it isn't common at all in the wider industry. They would have had to fine/demote thousands of Engineers at my Megacorp. Having a PE at my Megacorp wasn't all that common. Other than pumping the resume, and being able to testify in court, it didn't really add much. That is different for construction type projects, where a PE is required for many things. And I personally know of at least two non BS Engineers who had the title of Staff Engineer at a very high tech Megacorp. And you probably would not have some of the consumer electronics products you have today! Yes, I think your view is far too narrow. -ERD50

I believe most US states recognize some form of "industrial exemption" with regards to working as an engineer. This is for engineering of products for interstate or international commerce and don't directly affect public safety, so perhaps a firmware engineer doing SoC integration would not require one-- but the team designing an automotive airbag would probably need to have at least a signoff from someone who is licensed.

I just took a quick glance at engineering job openings at FruitCo, and while every single one I saw spells out requirements for a 4-year or graduate engineering or CS degree, none of them mentioned a PE license. I wonder if this issue may affect an unlicensed engineer who begins to work remotely from a state that has no industrial exemption provision?

A couple of decades ago a technician colleague of mine called to tell me he was offered a job titled "Staff Engineer". He was a sharp guy who held no college degree, and he proved his ability by taking on out-of-scope projects he learned about from meetings addressing complicated customer issues. He ran the numbers and declined the offer, he concluded that "engineer" was code for "unpaid overtime".

[travelover]

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Originally Posted by travelover The definition is simple. Professionals are better than other people and having the title allows us to look down on our inferiors. Sniff.

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Originally Posted by Al in Ohio ...........IF anyone used the title "ENGINEER" as any word in a job title without having done the above both the individual and the COMPANY involved can be sued and fined. Someone just needs to rat them out.

Sniff.

[Al in Ohio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunkelblau I believe most US states recognize some form of "industrial exemption" with regards to working as an engineer. This is for engineering of products for interstate or international commerce and don't directly affect public safety, so perhaps a firmware engineer doing SoC integration would not require one-- but the team designing an automotive airbag would probably need to have at least a signoff from someone who is licensed. I just took a quick glance at engineering job openings at FruitCo, and while every single one I saw spells out requirements for a 4-year or graduate engineering or CS degree, none of them mentioned a PE license. I wonder if this issue may affect an unlicensed engineer who begins to work remotely from a state that has no industrial exemption provision? A couple of decades ago a technician colleague of mine called to tell me he was offered a job titled "Staff Engineer". He was a sharp guy who held no college degree, and he proved his ability by taking on out-of-scope projects he learned about from meetings addressing complicated customer issues. He ran the numbers and declined the offer, he concluded that "engineer" was code for "unpaid overtime".

No Engineer gets hired out of Engineering school as a PE. As I stated earlier, they retain the title Engineer until such time that they have worked directly under a PE for 4 years or more, and then pass the PE test process. Then they can use the title Professional Engineer. Only 1/4 of those taking the test pass at any one sitting. To say it’s a hard test is an understatement. It is heavy on Calculus, trigonometry, chemistry, mechanics, mechanical design, statics etc. It is virtually impossible for a non degreed designer to pass. Before about 1980 or earlier non degreed designers were allowed to take the test if they had a number of years experience working under PE’s. It was many more years than the 4 required for degreed engineers. They stopped that when they found less than 5% ever passed even after dozens of attempts. I worked with a guy who took the PE test 21 times and never passed.

[ExFlyBoy5]

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Originally Posted by Al in Ohio The answer is no to both. And you can’t use the word “Engineer” in any job title unless you are a 4 year graduate in an engineering program from an accredited college. Engineer’s are professionals, hence P.E. Certification. Sanitation Engineer for instance is not a legal nor professional title.

That's funny, my former position in the United States Air Force was "Flight ENGINEER." It's even listed on my DD-214. The FAA has documents/regulations that also cite a flight crew position as "Flight ENGINEER"...you can get a permit from said agency to be a "Flight ENGINEER" and none of those have the requirements you list. Oh, and your copyright claim is incorrect.

So...thanks you and drive through.

[ERD50]

Al in Ohio, you certainly seem to be contradicting yourself. On one hand, you say one cannot use the term "Engineer" as a title until you are nearly completed the PE requirements. But then you say an "Engineer" can be anyone with a 4 year accredited Engineering degree.

Again, I've met hundreds, probably thousands of working Engineers, with Engineer on their company issued business cards, that were *not * PE's or even in the process of obtaining their PE. I highly, highly doubt MegaCorp would have allowed this if it was "illegal".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al in Ohio Each State Professional Engineering association as well the National Society of Professional Engineers has a copyright on the term "ENGINEER" in the job title. .... Prior to passing the last test they are officially just an “Engineer” if they accomplished everything else except the last test. No one else can use the term engineer. If they do it’s simply as illegal as Joe Shmoe using the title medical doctor. IF anyone used the title "ENGINEER" as any word in a job title without having done the above both the individual and the COMPANY involved can be sued and fined. Someone just needs to rat them out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al in Ohio No Engineer gets hired out of Engineering school as a PE. As I stated earlier, they retain the title Engineer until such time that they have worked directly under a PE for 4 years or more, and then pass the PE test process. .... .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al in Ohio The answer is no to both. And you can’t use the word “Engineer” in any job title unless you are a 4 year graduate in an engineering program from an accredited college. ....

-ERD50

[38Chevy454]

I think the confusion is using the term engineer as a proper title "Professional Engineer". Most any person with an engineering degree is an engineer by their job at a company, and most have some sort of description with the title of engineer: Associate Engineer, Senior Engineer, Principle Engineer, etc. They don't use the term Professional Engineer unless they have passed the PE exam and are licensed by the state. I think that is the confusion. I do think any engineer working falls under the general term professional (lower case).


FWIW I was a Professional Engineer (PE) when working, but now I am just a professional retiree

[ExFlyBoy5]

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Originally Posted by 38Chevy454 ... now I am just a professional retiree

This is what is most important. Changing my signature line now.

[MichaelB]

Not taking sides here, but an internet search led to this link https://ieeeusa.org/wp-content/uploa...rTitle1119.pdf

Quote:

IEEE-USA recognizes that the title, “Engineer,” has a multiplicity of meanings within the context of laws in all U.S. jurisdictions. These jurisdictions use the protected titles “Professional Engineer,” “Licensed Engineer,” “Registered Engineer,” or some variation thereof, to refer to individuals licensed in those jurisdictions to practice engineering. The purpose of protecting these titles is to ensure that the public can easily identify those individuals who possess the requisite skill, knowledge and competence to protect public safety, health and welfare in the practice of engineering. Generally, the public interprets the term, “Engineer,” more broadly than is represented by the protected titles. The public uses the term, “Engineer,” to mean a person who has acquired special knowledge and ability in the use of mathematical, physical and engineering sciences, and the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design. Upon verification of this knowledge by means of examinations and experience, such a person may be licensed to practice engineering in one (or more) jurisdiction(s) --and then be able to use the protected titles.

[homestead]

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Originally Posted by 38Chevy454 FWIW I was a Professional Engineer (PE) when working, but now I am just a professional retiree

Congrats on your promotion!

[foxfirev5]

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Originally Posted by Koolau Heh, heh, call me anything (except late to dinner) but pay me the money! YMMV

Absolutely. I've been licensed, certified, and at times petrified. But I certainly prefer to be an anonymous multimillionaire.

[travelover]

If you don't think an engineer is a professional, let's see you run a damn train.

[Ronstar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronstar .......Is a retired professional still a professional? Or does a professional cease being a professional when they no longer work in a particular profession?

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Originally Posted by skyking1 If there are continuing education requirements and a person chooses to keep them up, then my take is yes, still a professional. If they walk away then no, why would you clutch that last little vestige of work?

I agree with you.

I put my Illinois land surveyor's license on inactive status when it came up for renewal after I retired. I don't have to pay fees, or take continuing education, and I can't practice land surveying while my license is on inactive status. But the state refers to those people with licenses on inactive status as "professional" in this section of the act. I don't see how anyone can still be referred to as a professional in a field that they are no longer meeting all qualifications to practice in.

Quote:

(225 ILCS 330/19) (from Ch. 111, par. 3269) (Section scheduled to be repealed on January 1, 2030) Sec. 19. Inactive status. Any person who notifies the Department, in writing on forms prescribed by the Department, may place his or her license on inactive status and shall be excused from the payment of renewal fees until he or she notifies the Department in writing of the intention to resume active status. Any professional land surveyor whose license is in inactive status shall not practice land surveying in the State of Illinois. (Source: P.A. 101-313, eff. 8-9-19.)

[Al in Ohio]

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Originally Posted by 38Chevy454 I think the confusion is using the term engineer as a proper title "Professional Engineer". Most any person with an engineering degree is an engineer by their job at a company, and most have some sort of description with the title of engineer: Associate Engineer, Senior Engineer, Principle Engineer, etc. They don't use the term Professional Engineer unless they have passed the PE exam and are licensed by the state. I think that is the confusion. I do think any engineer working falls under the general term professional (lower case). FWIW I was a Professional Engineer (PE) when working, but now I am just a professional retiree

That’s what I had implied in the previous post when someone claimed I was contradicting myself. They misunderstood or misread my statement. And yes many companies wrongly use the term Engineer in some job titles. It doesn’t make it lawful. It means many (usually smaller companies with untrained HR staff) simply are wrong and breaking the law. I am not claiming I think I know these facts. I know these facts 100% to be accurate. I know the legalities of using the term Engineer and Professional Engineer completely. It used to be my job to know these rules. I was involved in more than one case of investigation of non engineers using the term engineer without proper credentials. All were punished. For every one that gets caught, 10 fly under the radar. Most states have a website and quarterly magazine for professional engineers. The last two pages always involve legal proceedings of those either producing sealed engineering drawings without a PE license or using the term Engineer without proper credentials.

In short as stated previously but with fewer words for those who need things simplified:

Engineer: Graduate of any accredited Engineering program with a BS in Engineering

Professional Engineer: Same as above plus passed 8 hour Fundamentals in Engineering test, plus 4 years direct supervision by a PE ( hands on the job experience), plus pass another 8 hour PE exam that is based solely on problem solving in your particular field of Engineering AND general problems with all steps written out and explained in essay open response fashion, plus 5 Sealed recommendation letters from current or former coworkers who are all licensed engineers.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al in Ohio That’s what I had implied in the previous post when someone claimed I was contradicting myself. They misunderstood or misread my statement. And yes many companies wrongly use the term Engineer in some job titles. It doesn’t make it lawful. It means many (usually smaller companies with untrained HR staff) simply are wrong and breaking the law. I am not claiming I think I know these facts. I know these facts 100% to be accurate. I know the legalities of using the term Engineer and Professional Engineer completely. It used to be my job to know these rules. I was involved in more than one case of investigation of non engineers using the term engineer without proper credentials. All were punished. For every one that gets caught, 10 fly under the radar. Most states have a website and quarterly magazine for professional engineers. The last two pages always involve legal proceedings of those either producing sealed engineering drawings without a PE license or using the term Engineer without proper credentials. In short as stated previously but with fewer words for those who need things simplified: Engineer: Graduate of any accredited Engineering program with a BS in Engineering Professional Engineer: Same as above plus passed 8 hour Fundamentals in Engineering test, plus 4 years direct supervision by a PE ( hands on the job experience), plus pass another 8 hour PE exam that is based solely on problem solving in your particular field of Engineering AND general problems with all steps written out and explained in essay open response fashion, plus 5 Sealed recommendation letters from current or former coworkers who are all licensed engineers.

But that is *not* what you said in the earlier post - where does the " misunderstood or misread" come in?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al in Ohio Each State Professional Engineering association as well the National Society of Professional Engineers has a copyright on the term "ENGINEER" in the job title. They require a standard (4-year min BS in an accredited approved engineering college program AND to pass an 8 hour test with a 75 or higher score AND then work as a agreed engineer for a minimum of 5 years UNDER direct supervision of a registered PE and THEN pass another full 8 hour test with a minimum of 75% correct score. then you walk the aisle and get certified as a LICENSED professional engineer. Prior to passing the last test they are officially just an “Engineer” if they accomplished everything else except the last test. No one else can use the term engineer. If they do it’s simply as illegal as Joe Shmoe using the title medical doctor. IF anyone used the title "ENGINEER" as any word in a job title without having done the above both the individual and the COMPANY involved can be sued and fined. Someone just needs to rat them out.

On top of that, my MegaCorp did have employees with the title of "Engineer", even "Senior" or "Staff" "Engineer" that did not have a BSEE. It was not common, but it did happen. I never heard even a whisper or insinuation of a fine or suit.

What you are saying just does not make sense - and you have not provided any reference for your claim. Certainly, one cannot claim to be a PE if they haven't reached and maintained that certification, that's fraud, but that's different than a company and individual using the title of "Engineer".

-ERD50

[Al in Ohio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB Not taking sides here, but an internet search led to this link https://ieeeusa.org/wp-content/uploa...rTitle1119.pdf

Thank you. This is the general legal qualifications for what I have been stating, although I gave the exact specifics on the requirements for education, experience and the examination requirements to use the title.

[Al in Ohio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelover If you don't think an engineer is a professional, let's see you run a damn train.

Ha ha. Actually the term Engineer in two titles previously common in the workforce but now pretty much phased out were allowed and exempt from the current legal term.

Those were “ Locomotive Engineer” and Steam Boiler Engineer”. I think neither of those positions are in use today, but not sure what the modern title of the guy who drives the train is. I think now it’s just Engine Operator or something like that.