We just refinanced for our 12th mortgage in 25 years. We've made money on every one of them, and we thought we were pretty hot stuff, but we learned a few new wrinkles. Maybe it's "only in Hawaii" or maybe it's only at our very small (undercapitalized?) bank, but perhaps this data is useful for the next guy seeking a refi.
Our previous refi was late 2005 with Navy Federal Credit Union. It was a no-doc to drop the rate from 5.5% to 5.375%, database appraisal, deep discounts, and combined with a no-cost HELOC. The notary drove out to our house to sign the papers on our back lanai. If I'd thought to ask, he probably would've picked up a six-pack on the way.
Today's refi environment is a little bit more, shall we say, conservative. We were even charged $50 extra for a "large lot" appraisal. But at least they closed at their branch office (1.5 miles from the house) instead of us having to drive into town.
- Banks are not dead. I'd been watching PenFed, NFCU, other local credit unions, and USAA like a hawk. USAA was leading the race. However I was searching BankRate.com one day when a tiny local bank popped up with a rate well below the others. We flirted around for a few phone calls, narrowly missing 4.25% at three points, but applied at 4.5% for 2.375 points.
- Rates change frequently. It used to be that rates changed weekly or even monthly, but some lenders are Internet-connected enough to change their rates 3-4 times per day. We were quoted the above 4.25% rate, or 4.5% at 2 points, on Wednesday just before New Year's. When we showed up 9 AM Friday to do the paperwork, only 4.5% at 2.375 points was available. I muttered about "bait & switch" and was told that this bank didn't take website applications or offer a lock over the phone, and this was the price we paid for access to such below-market rates. She was right-- at the time the closest competitor (USAA) was 4.875% at over three points. We would've only caught the lower rate by driving right over to the nearest branch, persuading them to unlock the doors, and filling out the application right then.
- You get what you pay for. We couldn't apply over a website or a phone call, and we had to submit everything on second-millenium paper. Our appraiser was terrible, which I'll vent to the bank after the loan is recorded & disbursed. OTOH I could talk to our processor just about any time with no voice-response-from-hell phone systems. She also used an escrow company that was offering great [-]kickbacks[/-] discounts on fees & title insurance. We would never have figured this out from their website. We paid only $1100 for title insurance & processing, about half of "normal".
- Income matters more than assets. As retirees we were surprised to hear this. She said "Assets can vaporize overnight, and we've seen it happen all last year." Our lack of W-2s confounded them. They were much more interested in my pension check (and our portfolio dividends & CD income) than they were in our brokerage balances. (She later admitted she thought I must be retired on disability.) They insisted on seeing evidence that I'd ever been paid a pension (1099-Rs) and then they wanted evidence that I'd continue to be paid one.
- Points can be your friend. I used to be against points, but this time they dropped our rate significantly without having a proportionate effect on the payback. Even if I assumed that I could earn 5% on the money instead of paying points, the refi payback is only 44 months. The no-points payback was 40 months. Sold! I think the bank realized this mispricing (or got a lot of applications that week) because points were already rising when we applied. So when seeking a good rate, it may be worth comparing paybacks with & without points.
- Title is important. If the title doesn't match the mortgage then the lender may want them changed to match. For example, if you leave the house title in spouse's name, then her financial data may have to carry the mortgage application without you. Or you'd have to change the title to joint before being able to use both incomes/assets. We refinanced three previous times at NFCU without this being an issue.
- It's hard to take cash out. In our case we were trying to match the new mortgage balance to the old. The processing delay (35 days into a 45-day lock) meant that another old-mortgage payment might come due before closing, which would lower the old mortgage balance below the new mortgage amount-- $400 cash out. The good news is that our processor lit a fire under the underwriters to avoid having to deal with the paperwork required by this situation.
- NFCU was a PITA. Not only would they not give "valued 25-year member discounts" or drop the rate on the old loan for a small fee, but they wanted to charge origination fees & points as if they were starting over from scratch. They wouldn't even subordinate the HELOC to the new mortgage, although maybe they were pouting over not getting our mortgage business. Instead we closed the HELOC and they got none of our business. I inquired what I'd need to do to request cancelling the automatic mortgage payment, and their response was to cancel it. They even mailed me a coupon book...
- NFCU is not a "local" bank. Hawaii may be a state for 50 years this year, but in this regard the title companies are still a paranoid provincial backwater. We deposited a NFCU cashier's check of way more than enough funds more than two weeks ahead of closing. Of course it cleared immediately (the world's largest credit union?) but no one thought to offer to return the interest.
- Impound accounts for taxes/insurance are not easily waived. We insisted on this from the beginning but it still proved a hard sell. The processor said only an extremely high credit score (= "no delinquent payments") convinced them, and we were still the 1% exception. Apparently banks are insisting on having these accounts to protect their collateral, no matter how much equity we have (or how little they have). My cynical side thinks that impound accounts are one of a bank's few remaining profit centers.
- Checklist mentality. We were queried on why our checking account showed a $30K deposit just a few weeks before closing. They were concerned that we were being "gifted" or loaned the closing costs-- hey, guys, it's a refi, not a home purchase! When I faxed over page four of our seven-page brokerage statement showing the source of the $30K, they then wanted to see the other six pages "just to have the whole picture". I finally persuaded them that we were chasing yield. When I explained to the processor that the other pages showed tax-loss swap transactions, she agreed that underwriting wasn't ready to handle that information. (Our processor implied a good-cop/bad-cop relationship with underwriting, or maybe we were feeling Stockholm Syndrome.) My impression of underwriting is an image of Dilbert's "accounting trolls".
- HELOCs. After we finished with the notary, I asked our processor about upselling us a HELOC. She shut the door and advised us to go to Schwab or Fidelity! Apparently brokerages are offering HELOCs at or below prime. That's my research project for next week…
Our previous refi was late 2005 with Navy Federal Credit Union. It was a no-doc to drop the rate from 5.5% to 5.375%, database appraisal, deep discounts, and combined with a no-cost HELOC. The notary drove out to our house to sign the papers on our back lanai. If I'd thought to ask, he probably would've picked up a six-pack on the way.
Today's refi environment is a little bit more, shall we say, conservative. We were even charged $50 extra for a "large lot" appraisal. But at least they closed at their branch office (1.5 miles from the house) instead of us having to drive into town.
- Banks are not dead. I'd been watching PenFed, NFCU, other local credit unions, and USAA like a hawk. USAA was leading the race. However I was searching BankRate.com one day when a tiny local bank popped up with a rate well below the others. We flirted around for a few phone calls, narrowly missing 4.25% at three points, but applied at 4.5% for 2.375 points.
- Rates change frequently. It used to be that rates changed weekly or even monthly, but some lenders are Internet-connected enough to change their rates 3-4 times per day. We were quoted the above 4.25% rate, or 4.5% at 2 points, on Wednesday just before New Year's. When we showed up 9 AM Friday to do the paperwork, only 4.5% at 2.375 points was available. I muttered about "bait & switch" and was told that this bank didn't take website applications or offer a lock over the phone, and this was the price we paid for access to such below-market rates. She was right-- at the time the closest competitor (USAA) was 4.875% at over three points. We would've only caught the lower rate by driving right over to the nearest branch, persuading them to unlock the doors, and filling out the application right then.
- You get what you pay for. We couldn't apply over a website or a phone call, and we had to submit everything on second-millenium paper. Our appraiser was terrible, which I'll vent to the bank after the loan is recorded & disbursed. OTOH I could talk to our processor just about any time with no voice-response-from-hell phone systems. She also used an escrow company that was offering great [-]kickbacks[/-] discounts on fees & title insurance. We would never have figured this out from their website. We paid only $1100 for title insurance & processing, about half of "normal".
- Income matters more than assets. As retirees we were surprised to hear this. She said "Assets can vaporize overnight, and we've seen it happen all last year." Our lack of W-2s confounded them. They were much more interested in my pension check (and our portfolio dividends & CD income) than they were in our brokerage balances. (She later admitted she thought I must be retired on disability.) They insisted on seeing evidence that I'd ever been paid a pension (1099-Rs) and then they wanted evidence that I'd continue to be paid one.
- Points can be your friend. I used to be against points, but this time they dropped our rate significantly without having a proportionate effect on the payback. Even if I assumed that I could earn 5% on the money instead of paying points, the refi payback is only 44 months. The no-points payback was 40 months. Sold! I think the bank realized this mispricing (or got a lot of applications that week) because points were already rising when we applied. So when seeking a good rate, it may be worth comparing paybacks with & without points.
- Title is important. If the title doesn't match the mortgage then the lender may want them changed to match. For example, if you leave the house title in spouse's name, then her financial data may have to carry the mortgage application without you. Or you'd have to change the title to joint before being able to use both incomes/assets. We refinanced three previous times at NFCU without this being an issue.
- It's hard to take cash out. In our case we were trying to match the new mortgage balance to the old. The processing delay (35 days into a 45-day lock) meant that another old-mortgage payment might come due before closing, which would lower the old mortgage balance below the new mortgage amount-- $400 cash out. The good news is that our processor lit a fire under the underwriters to avoid having to deal with the paperwork required by this situation.
- NFCU was a PITA. Not only would they not give "valued 25-year member discounts" or drop the rate on the old loan for a small fee, but they wanted to charge origination fees & points as if they were starting over from scratch. They wouldn't even subordinate the HELOC to the new mortgage, although maybe they were pouting over not getting our mortgage business. Instead we closed the HELOC and they got none of our business. I inquired what I'd need to do to request cancelling the automatic mortgage payment, and their response was to cancel it. They even mailed me a coupon book...
- NFCU is not a "local" bank. Hawaii may be a state for 50 years this year, but in this regard the title companies are still a paranoid provincial backwater. We deposited a NFCU cashier's check of way more than enough funds more than two weeks ahead of closing. Of course it cleared immediately (the world's largest credit union?) but no one thought to offer to return the interest.
- Impound accounts for taxes/insurance are not easily waived. We insisted on this from the beginning but it still proved a hard sell. The processor said only an extremely high credit score (= "no delinquent payments") convinced them, and we were still the 1% exception. Apparently banks are insisting on having these accounts to protect their collateral, no matter how much equity we have (or how little they have). My cynical side thinks that impound accounts are one of a bank's few remaining profit centers.
- Checklist mentality. We were queried on why our checking account showed a $30K deposit just a few weeks before closing. They were concerned that we were being "gifted" or loaned the closing costs-- hey, guys, it's a refi, not a home purchase! When I faxed over page four of our seven-page brokerage statement showing the source of the $30K, they then wanted to see the other six pages "just to have the whole picture". I finally persuaded them that we were chasing yield. When I explained to the processor that the other pages showed tax-loss swap transactions, she agreed that underwriting wasn't ready to handle that information. (Our processor implied a good-cop/bad-cop relationship with underwriting, or maybe we were feeling Stockholm Syndrome.) My impression of underwriting is an image of Dilbert's "accounting trolls".
- HELOCs. After we finished with the notary, I asked our processor about upselling us a HELOC. She shut the door and advised us to go to Schwab or Fidelity! Apparently brokerages are offering HELOCs at or below prime. That's my research project for next week…