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Old 02-05-2021, 05:28 PM   #61
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Right now, I just have an inherited IRA where I need to take RMDs. But I want to avoid the "end of year" and "beginning of the year" withdrawals when a lot of people take the RMDs. instead I plan to take it each year on my mother's birthday.
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I agree
Old 02-05-2021, 05:31 PM   #62
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I agree

1. Selling something in anticipation of a withdrawal,
2. Withdrawing the funds from the IRA.

They don’t have to be done at the same time. You can set aside funds for withdrawal early in the year, but wait until late in the year to withdraw them.


The experience of 2020 shows us that this is a good approach.
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Old 02-05-2021, 06:36 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Souschef View Post
I have a spreadsheet to schedule my RMD withdrawals during the year. Here are how mine work:
Quarterly for estimated tax payments
Birthday gifts to our sons J,J,A,S
Charitable (QCD) gifts at certain times during the year
I have attached a sample I created for someone else here. It also calculates your RMD
Cool! Thanks for the calculator!
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Old 02-05-2021, 07:52 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by davebarnes View Post
1. Everything is done after my visit with my tax prep guy in February.
2. I am doing 12 QCDs in 2021 to use up most of my RMD.
3. A $2500 RMD will be done before March 01. Estimated taxes sent on March 31.
4. Roth conversion will be done before March 01. Estimated taxes will be taken from taxable account and sent to IRS and Colorado on March 31.

I look forward to the day when our tIRAs contain only enough money for QCDs.
WATCH OUT.
Information I had received from Schwab said that I had to take my RMD BEFORE any Roth conversion. Otherwise, it causes some tax problem.
Here is a source I found online that says the same thing.
https://lawrencefinancialplanning.co...conversion-faq

3. CAN I DO ROTH CONVERSIONS AFTER AGE 72 WHEN I START TAKING RMDS?
Yes, you can do Roth conversions in a year where you also take required minimum distributions (RMDs). There is no age limit for Roth conversions. The only thing that changes is that the RMD must be made first, then any remaining distributions can be Roth conversions if you wish.
https://lawrencefinancialplanning.co...conversion-faq

3. CAN I DO ROTH CONVERSIONS AFTER AGE 72 WHEN I START TAKING RMDS?
Yes, you can do Roth conversions in a year where you also take required minimum distributions (RMDs). There is no age limit for Roth conversions. The only thing that changes is that the RMD must be made first, then any remaining distributions can be Roth conversions if you wish.
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Old 02-05-2021, 08:02 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by RunningBum View Post
And conversely, you can withdraw from your IRA, but invest it in the same thing in your taxable account if you don't want to be selling in a down market.

Given a choice, you really would rather be withdrawing from your IRA at a lower point than a higher point, to reduce taxes.
This is true for the lower point if you are reinvesting or withdrawing shares in kind and paying taxes from cash or after tax funds.

But from a tax standpoint you are still withdrawing the same amount of $$ as required by the RMD, so no tax difference during the withdrawal year that I can see.
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Old 02-05-2021, 08:41 PM   #66
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This is true for the lower point if you are reinvesting or withdrawing shares in kind and paying taxes from cash or after tax funds.

But from a tax standpoint you are still withdrawing the same amount of $$ as required by the RMD, so no tax difference during the withdrawal year that I can see.
No tax difference this year, but any interest you make between selling and withdrawing will eventually be taxed at the regular income rate.

Suppose your RMD is $10,000.
On Jan 1 you sell $10,000 of some fund in your IRA.
You move the money to a money market at 1%.
On Dec 31 you make your $10,000 RMD.
Your IRA has grown $100 because of that money market investment (plus whatever the rest of the balance has grown).
Eventually your or your heir will pay taxes on that $100.

- or -
On Jan 1 you sell $10,000 of some fund in your IRA.
Same day, or whenever that settles, you make your $10,000 RMD.
Now you've got $10,000 in your taxable account. Even if you don't directly invest that $10K, it let's you keep $10,000 in some other investment for the rest of the year rather than spending it. Since we're now dealing with a taxable account, you have the opportunity to hold it for an LTCG, or even hold it until you die, letting your heirs get a stepped up basis.

In both cases you have taxable income of $10,000 on the MRD, but in the first case, you've got the earnings ($100) still in the tIRA, rather than in an account where it can be better tax-managed.

Sure, in this example, tax on $100 is chump change, but it works for larger amounts too, and multiple years. The example shows that you are better off getting money out of a tIRA if it has a better chance of growing than not, and moving it to a taxable account. That's why I say to take your RMDs early in the year, or perhaps waiting for a dip if you want to do a little market timing, rather than letting it grow inside the IRA.

An exception would be if you want to use your RMD for a QCD. You might want to let the $10K RMD/QCD make a little more money for you before you give away the $10K.

Another exception might be if you want to use the RMD to do withholding rather making estimated tax payments on your RMD plus any other taxable income.
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Old 02-05-2021, 09:45 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Jim in PA View Post
WATCH OUT.
Information I had received from Schwab said that I had to take my RMD BEFORE any Roth conversion. Otherwise, it causes some tax problem.
Here is a source I found online that says the same thing.
https://lawrencefinancialplanning.co...conversion-faq

3. CAN I DO ROTH CONVERSIONS AFTER AGE 72 WHEN I START TAKING RMDS?
Yes, you can do Roth conversions in a year where you also take required minimum distributions (RMDs). There is no age limit for Roth conversions. The only thing that changes is that the RMD must be made first, then any remaining distributions can be Roth conversions if you wish.
https://lawrencefinancialplanning.co...conversion-faq

3. CAN I DO ROTH CONVERSIONS AFTER AGE 72 WHEN I START TAKING RMDS?
Yes, you can do Roth conversions in a year where you also take required minimum distributions (RMDs). There is no age limit for Roth conversions. The only thing that changes is that the RMD must be made first, then any remaining distributions can be Roth conversions if you wish.
May just be good info for me to have this year. Watch this space. Gonna check again w/tax guy when I sit down before 4/15. See if better to pay 24% than maybe more later. Now I know what order to do it. Thanks!
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Old 02-05-2021, 09:55 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Jim in PA View Post
WATCH OUT.
Information I had received from Schwab said that I had to take my RMD BEFORE any Roth conversion. Otherwise, it causes some tax problem.
Here is a source I found online that says the same thing.
https://lawrencefinancialplanning.co...conversion-faq

3. CAN I DO ROTH CONVERSIONS AFTER AGE 72 WHEN I START TAKING RMDS?
Yes, you can do Roth conversions in a year where you also take required minimum distributions (RMDs). There is no age limit for Roth conversions. The only thing that changes is that the RMD must be made first, then any remaining distributions can be Roth conversions if you wish.
https://lawrencefinancialplanning.co...conversion-faq

3. CAN I DO ROTH CONVERSIONS AFTER AGE 72 WHEN I START TAKING RMDS?
Yes, you can do Roth conversions in a year where you also take required minimum distributions (RMDs). There is no age limit for Roth conversions. The only thing that changes is that the RMD must be made first, then any remaining distributions can be Roth conversions if you wish.
I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think the IRS imposes any ordering rules on RMDs vs. Roth conversions. Certainly one is required to take one's RMD each year, but I think it's perfectly fine to intermix and order RMDs and Roth conversions any which way within a tax year.

If I'm wrong, I'd like to see a pointer to an actual IRS publication or instruction that says otherwise. I haven't heard of one yet.
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Old 02-05-2021, 10:08 PM   #69
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I'm 2 years away from RMD's and have made it 12 years in ER without withdrawals.

My DW's Rollover IRA only has 10% as much as mine.

DW makes her yearly withdrawals whenever she wants to go to Europe (in non Covid years.) And she just made a withdrawal to help her granddaughter purchase a house. The state matched the down payment for this single mother.
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Old 02-06-2021, 04:31 AM   #70
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I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think the IRS imposes any ordering rules on RMDs vs. Roth conversions. Certainly one is required to take one's RMD each year, but I think it's perfectly fine to intermix and order RMDs and Roth conversions any which way within a tax year.

If I'm wrong, I'd like to see a pointer to an actual IRS publication or instruction that says otherwise. I haven't heard of one yet.
Ok... here’s another “expert” who indicates that you must take the RMD >>BEFORE>> doing a Roth conversion. But he provides additional explanation. Paraphrasing here: In IRS logic, your traditional IRA isn’t “yours.” It’s partially yours, but some of it is “theirs.” Once you’re subject to RMDs, they want their cut before you do anything else with that money. Continuing that logic, you aren’t eligible to convert those funds to a Roth, because you hadn’t paid them their cut. That makes your conversion an “excess” contribution to the Roth.

But this expert didn’t note a particular IRS sub paragraph, so feel free to substitute your ‘opinion’ instead. BTW the penalty for that ‘excess contribution’ is only 6%, so no big deal, right? Yeah, it’s only 6%, but that’s PER YEAR that the excess remains in your Roth.

Webpage https://rodgers-associates.com/blog/...r-people-over/
The first dollars taken from an IRA after you reach age 70‑˝ are deemed by the IRS as going toward the RMD. Therefore, you must distribute the RMD before any amount of your IRA is converted to a Roth. Failure to do so could result in an excess contribution to a Roth IRA. The IRS levies a 6% penalty for each year this money remains in the Roth IRA.
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Old 02-06-2021, 06:28 AM   #71
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We have just converted the last of our IRAs to Roth IRAs a week ago. Our plan was to convert some each year to minimize taxes. This year, I got tired of messing and converted the last amount. After Covid-19 upending our family's lives, it is the right time for us. We are 68.5 in age.



In Jan 2022, we intend to draw Social Security. This move offsets our tax increase. RMDs were not in our plan.
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Old 02-06-2021, 06:40 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think the IRS imposes any ordering rules on RMDs vs. Roth conversions. Certainly one is required to take one's RMD each year, but I think it's perfectly fine to intermix and order RMDs and Roth conversions any which way within a tax year.

If I'm wrong, I'd like to see a pointer to an actual IRS publication or instruction that says otherwise. I haven't heard of one yet.
Everything I've read is consistent that you have to take the RMD before you can do a conversion.

Here is a good explanation, with references to the code:
Roth Conversion: Take Your Required Minimum Distribution Out First
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Old 02-06-2021, 12:07 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Jim in PA View Post
Ok... here’s another “expert” who indicates that you must take the RMD >>BEFORE>> doing a Roth conversion. But he provides additional explanation. Paraphrasing here: In IRS logic, your traditional IRA isn’t “yours.” It’s partially yours, but some of it is “theirs.” Once you’re subject to RMDs, they want their cut before you do anything else with that money. Continuing that logic, you aren’t eligible to convert those funds to a Roth, because you hadn’t paid them their cut. That makes your conversion an “excess” contribution to the Roth.

But this expert didn’t note a particular IRS sub paragraph, so feel free to substitute your ‘opinion’ instead. BTW the penalty for that ‘excess contribution’ is only 6%, so no big deal, right? Yeah, it’s only 6%, but that’s PER YEAR that the excess remains in your Roth.

Webpage https://rodgers-associates.com/blog/...r-people-over/
The first dollars taken from an IRA after you reach age 70‑˝ are deemed by the IRS as going toward the RMD. Therefore, you must distribute the RMD before any amount of your IRA is converted to a Roth. Failure to do so could result in an excess contribution to a Roth IRA. The IRS levies a 6% penalty for each year this money remains in the Roth IRA.
The article is written by Rick Rodgers, the founder of the firm. What are his expert qualifications? He worked for American Express and Prudential for some period of time, and has written a book.

There are no cites to any IRS publications. The additional logic you're paraphrasing in your first paragraph is faulty.

Yes, the IRS expects you to pay taxes on RMDs. This is handled through Form 1099-R (and possibly Form 8606), and will be reported on line 4 of Form 1040 or 1040SR. A taxpayer who intermixed a Roth conversion would also pay taxes on that conversion, also via the same mechanism.

You and he are correct in that one cannot take RMD funds and convert them to a Roth. So one cannot, for example, have a $100K RMD and only withdraw $80K and contribute $20K to a Roth. You cannot count a Roth conversion towards an RMD.

But that is not what I have been saying. What I have been saying is that it is OK to take a $100K RMD and a $20K Roth conversion by way of doing a $50K RMD in January, a $20K Roth conversion in February, and a $50K RMD in March.

I agree with you and the article's author that the 6% excess contribution does apply to excess contributions to an IRA for each year that the excess contribution remains in the IRA. However, Roth conversions are an entirely different thing from Roth contributions, so the excess contribution rule would never apply to a Roth conversion. Roth conversions are handled on Form 8606 part II, the 6% excise tax is calculated on Form 8329 Part IV. Note that the latter has no interaction with the former (or tell me where it does if I am wrong).

My opinion is based on what I read from IRS forms and publications and my two years of training as a certified tax counselor for the AARP Foundation Tax Aide program. I still agree that I may not be right, but in general we are trained to make sure of what we know and to know how to seek answers when we don't. Generally the latter involves looking to IRS forms and publications for answers.
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Old 02-06-2021, 12:20 PM   #74
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Everything I've read is consistent that you have to take the RMD before you can do a conversion.

Here is a good explanation, with references to the code:
Roth Conversion: Take Your Required Minimum Distribution Out First
I think this is much closer to on point, thanks. I also appreciate the reference to the code, which I read carefully.

The only question I have is whether the word "first" in the 26CFR-1402(c)2 is meant to be read as "chronologically first" or "priority first". I can't tell.
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Old 02-06-2021, 12:43 PM   #75
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I am not old enough to take RMDs from my tIRA, but my (snake-bit) friend (who, like me, is 57) has to take RMDs from an inherited IRA. He works FT so he doesn't need the money to pay his bills.

I set up his inherited IRA so that its investments generate enough cash to pay the annual RMD, at least for a while. For the first few years, starting in 2013, it generated much more dividends and interest than was needed to pay the RMD. But when a bond got called early, he was now breaking roughly even or only ahead slightly. The remaining investments, including where we put the bond's proceeds, still covered his RMD by the time December rolled around. At some point in the next few years, the RMD will be larger than the cash it has generated, but we're not there yet. When that crossover point arrives, we'll have to sell something.

Because he has considerable investment earnings from the rest of his large inheritance, I use some or most of his RMD to pay estimated taxes on his taxable account. As we get near the end of the year, his tax picture becomes clearer so I can figure out how much of the RMD should go toward federal and state income taxes via 1099R withholding and he will end up owing a small amount in April. Of course, the RMD itself generates some added tax liability (for federal only, not state), so I have to take that into account.

In 2020, he didn't have to take an RMD, as you know. This kept his tax bill down some, but we had to make some estimated tax payments to offset those not made through 1099R. It has also spiked his 2021 RMD amount upward by a lot more than it had been rising each year since 2013.
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Old 02-06-2021, 06:09 PM   #76
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I know this HAS TO be on here but I could not find it.

By when/how I mean once a year, quarterly, monthly etc. Any particular reason one is better than another?
Here is the IRS link to RMD:

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p59...link1000231238

One paragraph caught my eye:

"Distributions from individual retirement account.
If you are the owner of a traditional IRA that is an individual retirement account, you or your trustee must figure the required minimum distribution for each year. See Figuring the Owner's Required Minimum Distribution below."

My comment: If you have an IRA with Fidelity, Vanguard, etc who may be considered a "trustee", I then recommend that you contact them to determine if they will figure out the RMD for you. Perhaps they will give you the distribution options for monthly, quarterly, yearly, lump sum, etc

If they informed you that you have to figure this out yourself, then the same above link implied that you have to use the Worksheet in Appendix A. This worksheet implies that you take the value of the IRA on Dec 31 and then divide by the "distribution period" in appendix B. Table II is applicable to my situation because my wife is 20 years younger than me.

Using $1,000,000 IRA as an example, if you are age 70 and your spouse is age 50, the distribution period is 35.1. RMD= $1M/35.1= $28,490
Disclaimer: I am not a tax expert so you should verify this RMD calculation with a CPA or qualified tax advisor.

What is funny is that the publication has a situation where the guy can be age 115 and the wife is age 20. The distribution period is 63, so RMD=$1M/63 = $15,873. It appears the IRS is making sure that the 20 years old wife has sufficient money remaining in the $1M IRA to inherit.
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Old 02-06-2021, 06:17 PM   #77
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... My comment: If you have an IRA with Fidelity, Vanguard, etc who may be considered a "trustee", I then recommend that you contact them to determine if they will figure out the RMD for you. Perhaps they will give you the distribution options for monthly, quarterly, yearly, lump sum, etc. ...
Well they "may be considered a Trustee" because that's what they are.

Both Fido and Schwab provide the RMD amount as a routine part of their statements and screens. IIRC Schwab even offers a "Take my RMD" button, though I have never used it. I think it's a one-time thing, probably handy at the end of the year to make sure any untaken residual gets withdrawn.
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Old 02-07-2021, 11:46 AM   #78
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Well they "may be considered a Trustee" because that's what they are.

Both Fido and Schwab provide the RMD amount as a routine part of their statements and screens. IIRC Schwab even offers a "Take my RMD" button, though I have never used it. I think it's a one-time thing, probably handy at the end of the year to make sure any untaken residual gets withdrawn.
Fido's website not only shows the RMD for the year (for my friend's inherited IRA) but shows how it is calculated. On the first of the year, the account balance is known, and the divisor is simply the previous year's divisor minus one. Given what I wrote a few posts up, it is good to know this at the start of the year so I can estimate how much cash his IRA will generate compared to what the RMD will be and plan accordingly.

Once we get to the end of the year, we select an RMD, usually bumped up to the next $50 increment to make it easier to keep track of, we can then allocate parts of it to estimated income taxes via 1099R withholding.
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Old 02-13-2021, 08:48 PM   #79
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The IRS says you must take RMD before Roth conversions.


But.....what your broker(s) report to the IRS does not contain the date of your withdrawals or conversions, just that you took them in the tax year. So as a practical matter, you can do them in whatever order you want.


May make a difference if you get audited, though.
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Old 02-13-2021, 09:53 PM   #80
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Before converting a regular IRA to a Roth IRA, I humbly suggest seeing a CPA to verify whether the conversion makes sense. You do not pay any federal taxes if your income does not exceed a certain amount as noted in the link below.

Ref: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/do...xes-2015-02-10

It may be OK to do a partial conversion so that the RMD on your regular taxible IRA will be below the IRS threshold for paying taxes. You may then use income from the Roth IRA for any income you need above the IRS threshold. For your state taxes, I do not know if your state has a similar threshold before you have to pay state taxes.

I guess I am concerned about people doing a 100% Roth conversion, pay taxes on the 100% Roth conversion and then later discovered that they could have avoided some of the Roth conversion tax by only doing a partial Roth conversion.
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