Why can I not stop thinking about paying off my mortgage?!?!

corn18

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Just a rant because I really should not pay off my mortgage. But I so want to. ARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

56, retired, 30 year 2.25% fixed rate mortgage with 29 years left. $492k balance. Would take all my taxable account to pay it off, so would have to do it over 3-5 years so I can get it all out @ 0% LTCG.

My model says it would be the dumbest thing ever.
 
I'm a huge fan of paying off the mortgage, but under the circumstances, no.

What you can do is print out an amortization chart, and every once in a while make an extra payment of principal. But your rate is amazing, and I would not sell of your taxable account to get it done.
 
I regret paying cash for my house instead of taking out a mortgage. I would be a lot farther ahead if I had left the money in the market and taking a low interest loan out.

It wasn't the dumbest move I've made, but I do regret it. I put a lot of thought into it and decided I liked the cash flow simplicity of not having debt.
 
I totally don't regret paying off our mortgage - but the circumstances were different.
 
Just a rant because I really should not pay off my mortgage. But I so want to. ARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

56, retired, 30 year 2.25% fixed rate mortgage with 29 years left. $492k balance. Would take all my taxable account to pay it off, so would have to do it over 3-5 years so I can get it all out @ 0% LTCG.

My model says it would be the dumbest thing ever.

It depends... what is $492k of your taxable account invested in and what do you expect those investments to earn over the next 29 years?
 
Corn18, you are in an ideal financial position having a 2.25% mortgage during a period of relatively high inflation. I understand wanting to pay it off, but it makes sense to keep it for now, depending on the source of the payoff funds.
 
What you can do is print out an amortization chart, and every once in a while make an extra payment of principal. But your rate is amazing, and I would not sell of your taxable account to get it done.

I did exactly this with a 15 year mortgage I had at 6.5% years ago. Each month I sent in a "principal only" payment along with the scheduled one and it cut my mortgage down to a 7 1/2 year payoff. I saved a ton in interest.
 
I paid off my mortgage and for me, that worked out wonderfully. One of the happiest days in my life! :D When I bought my "Dream Home" ten years later, I didn't need a mortgage because I had cash from the buyer of my previous home.

But given what you are saying, it doesn't sound like you feel paying off the mortage would be the best way forward in your situation. So I guess the best thing to do is wait, and continue to study the numbers to reassure yourself that keeping the mortgage is a good idea.

One thing to remember is that once you pay off the mortgage, it is gone and no longer an issue. No more rent, no more mortgage. Just tax, insurance, maintenance, and so on.

But then again, another thing to remember is that if we are headed into massive inflation, as many suggest, the "buying power" of your monthly mortage payments will soon become nearly trivial. In a way, inflation will be partly paying off your mortgage for you. Having a mortage is a great move during inflationary times.
 
I paid off my mortgage and for me, that worked out wonderfully. One of the happiest days in my life! :D When I bought my "Dream Home" ten years later, I didn't need a mortgage because I had cash from the buyer of my previous home.

But given what you are saying, it doesn't sound like you feel paying off the mortage would be the best way forward in your situation. So I guess the best thing to do is wait, and continue to study the numbers to reassure yourself that keeping the mortgage is a good idea.

One thing to remember is that once you pay off the mortgage, it is gone and no longer an issue. No more rent, no more mortgage. Just tax, insurance, maintenance, and so on.

But then again, another thing to remember is that if we are headed into massive inflation, as many suggest, the "buying power" of your monthly mortage payments will soon become nearly trivial. In a way, inflation will be partly paying off your mortgage for you.

That's why my model says it is stupid to pay it off. Assuming 2.74% inflation for the next 29 years, my final monthly payment is equivalent to $912 in today's dollars vs. $1920 today. If inflation is higher, that delta gets bigger.

And I am also earning 2.84% on my stable value / CD ladder in my 401k which is all of my fixed income.
 
That's why my model says it is stupid to pay it off. Assuming 2.74% inflation for the next 29 years, my final monthly payment is equivalent to $912 in today's dollars vs. $1920 today. If inflation is higher, that delta gets bigger.

And I am also earning 2.84% on my stable value / CD ladder in my 401k which is all of my fixed income.

Difficult choice. Given the current economic situation, I would probably keep the mortgage - - despite being one of the biggest "pay off the mortgage" fans on the ER Forum.

When I had my mortgage back in 2002-2006, it was at 6.38% and we didn't have predictions of so much inflation as we do now. You are likely to have an opportunity to get the inflation to work for you. That wasn't a factor in my decision. Your friends will be telling you (for years!) how brilliant you were to get a mortgage when you did.
 
I did exactly this with a 15 year mortgage I had at 6.5% years ago. Each month I sent in a "principal only" payment along with the scheduled one and it cut my mortgage down to a 7 1/2 year payoff. I saved a ton in interest.

Me too! I refinanced after about six months; went from 9 percent 30 year, to a 7 percent 15 year. Since it was so soon I was able to use the original appraisal, and the bank allowed an assignment of the mortgage which saved a ton of fees. I paid it off in seven years and too saved a ton in interest. :dance:
 
That is a great rate...
Are you married or single? If married here is something you might want to give some thought to? Not sure it would apply in your situation. YMMV :D

Good advice the late great imoldernu had posted some years back I saved regarding the value of having home equity saved up for couples as asset protection...

Perhaps the most important part of this thread on retirement, is the matter of protecting one's assets... and even more important, thinking ahead to protect the assets of a spouse, when health requires extraordinary expenses.

Since we, and our spouses will always be healthy, we don't think about what could happen. We just assume we'll both die at the same time.

Statistically that ain't gonna happen. If you already have a net worth of 2 Million dollars, don't read the rest... It doesn't apply to you.

Current medicaid law allows for payment of nursing home expenses under certain conditions. If you understand those conditions, you could save hundreds of thousands of dollars for yourself, your spouse, or your estate... (your kids).

Here are the things you should know about:

Current nursing home costs average from $75,000 to $90,000/yr. A friend on Long Island is currently paying over $135,000/yr. for just basic care.

The state (medicaid) does not automatically pay for this.

You should understand "exclusions".

Know that the "look back period" is now 5 years.

...........................................
As long as a married couple have assets, if one spouse should have to go into a nursing home, the couple's assets will be used to pay for the medical care until the assets go below a certain level, at which time, the state medicaid program will pay for the nursing home care. The asset level varies by state.
............................................

Here's an example that happened to friend, that points up the importance of planning ahead. Bob retired with his wife May, to Florida from Maine. He sold his Maine house for $280,000 and planned to use this as his nest egg during his retirement. He bought a mobile home..(downsized)for $35,000. Shortly after retiring, May began a long slide into Alzheimers, and after three years has to go into a nursing home. (at the time $65,000/yr.) She lived there for 5 years before passing away. Because Bob and May had assets from the sale of their house, medicaid would not pay, and The nest egg was gone.
..............................................
Now, here's what happens....
1. In counting assets, Bob is allowed certain exclusions. In General, the exclusions in his case, were... His house @ $35,000, His car $20,000, Cash (then, $40,000) and some smaller amounts like burial plot and non cash life insurance.
2. The logical thing to have done would be to give away the money in the nest egg, so the state wouldn't take it. That's where the lookback comes in. If he had given away the money to his kids, the state would not have taken the money... but... to prevent this from happening, the state will "look back" five years and deny medicaid payment,if this 'gift" transaction had taken place.

As it happened, May died, an Bob had nothing but his Social Security left to live on.
.................................................

Here's what I took from this...
Nine years ago, we owned a mobile home, and a park model trailer in a campground. Understanding Bob's situation, we took some of our savings, and purchased a home outright. This took the money out of our assets and put it into the house "exclusion". Now, if one of us shold have to go into a nursing home, the state may take from our savings account, but they will not take the house... Essentially this means that one of us will still be able to keep some substantial assets, hopefully enough to stay above the poverty level.
.............................................

This is just one of many, many reasons to look ahead to the future.
See the link to Elder Law on Exclusions. (website)

This is not a pleasant, nor a fun post. Most of you probably have some understanding of the laws, but the matter of elderlaw is extremely complex.

IMHO, when a case involving medical expense, or the legal position of any older relative, the very first thing to do is to contact an geriatric or eldercare lawyer. Not just any lawyer, but one who is deeply involved in elderlaw.
Bookmark the site on Elderlaw. There is a series of Q and A's bout real life situations, that should shed much light on a difficult subject. I thought I was relatively knowledgeable but found that in more cases than not, I had no idea of how the law treats estates and legal matters involving older people.


I have more nighmare stories about friends or neighbors who lost literal fortunes because of small errors in handling legal matters, either because of mistake in timing, or failure to obtain proper legal permissions. Anyone who has dealt with estate administration will understand what I'm talking about.

FWIW, I don't pretend to be a legal reference, and so some of the above may be wrong. Feel free to correct errors.

Just to point up the dangers involved in ignorance of the law. Back to the long Island situation, which involved a very good friend who has since passed away.

When Jim's wife showed early signs of Alzheimers, he sought advice from his children, who were lawyers, but not versed in elderlaw. They suggested that he "gift" to his 8 grandchildren to lower his liquid assets by $200,000, which might later be required to pay for his wife's coming nursing home costs. The gifting was legal. Two years later his wife went into a nursing home. When he declared his assets, he made no mention of the "gifts". After paying for two years of care, he had depleted what was left in his bank account, and the transfer of costs for the nursing home care went to the state. His wife lived in the nursing home for three more years.
As the state went over the accounting, they reviewed the "lookback" period, and found that the "gifting" had been omitted from the application. My friend was charged with medicaid fraud, and found guilty, and sentenced to a jail term. His children hired a criminal lawyer, who, for a considerable payment $150,000, managed to get the sentence revoked. Unfortunately, the interim years of stress took its' toll, and led to his early death... aged 78, but probably unnecessary.

A lesson in crime and punishment, but my point is that the law is involved, and has to be respected. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Thus the suggestion for the Elderlaw Lawyer.
__________________
 
Good info 2Hot. I'm thinking Corn is still a young buck, but he may wish to consult an elder care attorney when he reaches his 60's.
 
Just a rant because I really should not pay off my mortgage. But I so want to. ARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

My model says it would be the dumbest thing ever.

OK, got it, just a rant.....A few years back before pandemic, I paid off a similar amount on a 2.625% 30 year. At the time, I could not get the equivalent return of 3.5% long term guaranteed on all the extra cash we had, so I paid it off. It all depends whether that 1/2 million is a major portion of your retirement, or just a percentage and you have much more at a high risk in equities. If it were 30 to 50% of your main stash, you might re-think the pay off, but for us, it was so nice to be back in the paid off my home saddle again. When I was 22, I bought some acreage and designed and built my first home without a mortgage. For years since then I regretted having any long term debt. But if it were me today, I would certainly put the cash to work at a safe 4% buying A rated corporate bonds or similar and not worry about the LT debt.
 
That is a great rate...
Are you married or single? If married here is something you might want to give some thought to? Not sure it would apply in your situation. YMMV :D

Good advice the late great imoldernu had posted some years back I saved regarding the value of having home equity saved up for couples as asset protection...

Perhaps the most important part of this thread on retirement, is the matter of protecting one's assets... and even more important, thinking ahead to protect the assets of a spouse, when health requires extraordinary expenses.

Since we, and our spouses will always be healthy, we don't think about what could happen. We just assume we'll both die at the same time.

Statistically that ain't gonna happen. If you already have a net worth of 2 Million dollars, don't read the rest... It doesn't apply to you.

Current medicaid law allows for payment of nursing home expenses under certain conditions. If you understand those conditions, you could save hundreds of thousands of dollars for yourself, your spouse, or your estate... (your kids).

Here are the things you should know about:

Current nursing home costs average from $75,000 to $90,000/yr. A friend on Long Island is currently paying over $135,000/yr. for just basic care.

The state (medicaid) does not automatically pay for this.

You should understand "exclusions".

Know that the "look back period" is now 5 years.

...........................................
As long as a married couple have assets, if one spouse should have to go into a nursing home, the couple's assets will be used to pay for the medical care until the assets go below a certain level, at which time, the state medicaid program will pay for the nursing home care. The asset level varies by state.
............................................

Here's an example that happened to friend, that points up the importance of planning ahead. Bob retired with his wife May, to Florida from Maine. He sold his Maine house for $280,000 and planned to use this as his nest egg during his retirement. He bought a mobile home..(downsized)for $35,000. Shortly after retiring, May began a long slide into Alzheimers, and after three years has to go into a nursing home. (at the time $65,000/yr.) She lived there for 5 years before passing away. Because Bob and May had assets from the sale of their house, medicaid would not pay, and The nest egg was gone.
..............................................
Now, here's what happens....
1. In counting assets, Bob is allowed certain exclusions. In General, the exclusions in his case, were... His house @ $35,000, His car $20,000, Cash (then, $40,000) and some smaller amounts like burial plot and non cash life insurance.
2. The logical thing to have done would be to give away the money in the nest egg, so the state wouldn't take it. That's where the lookback comes in. If he had given away the money to his kids, the state would not have taken the money... but... to prevent this from happening, the state will "look back" five years and deny medicaid payment,if this 'gift" transaction had taken place.

As it happened, May died, an Bob had nothing but his Social Security left to live on.
.................................................

Here's what I took from this...
Nine years ago, we owned a mobile home, and a park model trailer in a campground. Understanding Bob's situation, we took some of our savings, and purchased a home outright. This took the money out of our assets and put it into the house "exclusion". Now, if one of us shold have to go into a nursing home, the state may take from our savings account, but they will not take the house... Essentially this means that one of us will still be able to keep some substantial assets, hopefully enough to stay above the poverty level.
.............................................

This is just one of many, many reasons to look ahead to the future.
See the link to Elder Law on Exclusions. (website)

This is not a pleasant, nor a fun post. Most of you probably have some understanding of the laws, but the matter of elderlaw is extremely complex.

IMHO, when a case involving medical expense, or the legal position of any older relative, the very first thing to do is to contact an geriatric or eldercare lawyer. Not just any lawyer, but one who is deeply involved in elderlaw.
Bookmark the site on Elderlaw. There is a series of Q and A's bout real life situations, that should shed much light on a difficult subject. I thought I was relatively knowledgeable but found that in more cases than not, I had no idea of how the law treats estates and legal matters involving older people.


I have more nighmare stories about friends or neighbors who lost literal fortunes because of small errors in handling legal matters, either because of mistake in timing, or failure to obtain proper legal permissions. Anyone who has dealt with estate administration will understand what I'm talking about.

FWIW, I don't pretend to be a legal reference, and so some of the above may be wrong. Feel free to correct errors.

Just to point up the dangers involved in ignorance of the law. Back to the long Island situation, which involved a very good friend who has since passed away.

When Jim's wife showed early signs of Alzheimers, he sought advice from his children, who were lawyers, but not versed in elderlaw. They suggested that he "gift" to his 8 grandchildren to lower his liquid assets by $200,000, which might later be required to pay for his wife's coming nursing home costs. The gifting was legal. Two years later his wife went into a nursing home. When he declared his assets, he made no mention of the "gifts". After paying for two years of care, he had depleted what was left in his bank account, and the transfer of costs for the nursing home care went to the state. His wife lived in the nursing home for three more years.
As the state went over the accounting, they reviewed the "lookback" period, and found that the "gifting" had been omitted from the application. My friend was charged with medicaid fraud, and found guilty, and sentenced to a jail term. His children hired a criminal lawyer, who, for a considerable payment $150,000, managed to get the sentence revoked. Unfortunately, the interim years of stress took its' toll, and led to his early death... aged 78, but probably unnecessary.

A lesson in crime and punishment, but my point is that the law is involved, and has to be respected. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Thus the suggestion for the Elderlaw Lawyer.
__________________

Wow. A great post. I'm bookmarking this one.
 
I did exactly this with a 15 year mortgage I had at 6.5% years ago. Each month I sent in a "principal only" payment along with the scheduled one and it cut my mortgage down to a 7 1/2 year payoff. I saved a ton in interest.
Yep, that is what I also did and sometimes two principal payments.
 
The money that we might have used to pay cash is in a taxable account where it provides liquidity if needed. We also have IRA and Roth accts but the IRA is taxable and we want the Roths to go to our heirs. Without the taxable acct we wouldn't have a liquid account besides savings just in case we need it. And with savings paying such low interest, it's unwise in inflationary times to keep a lot of money there. Paying LTCG is a small price to pay in case we need the money.

Our mortgage is 2.5%. The taxable account earns income at 5% (interest and dividends). The earnings pay our mortgage every month with money to spare.

After considering the tax deduction for mortgage interest, the "inflation deduction" and a better use for the money, it's obvious to me that real peace of mind comes from reducing our exposure to illiquid and non cashflowing assets like paid-off homes.

I'll be 92 YO when the house is paid off and that's fine. As long as the cash flow exists, the payment can easily be made. And even in the depths of COVID lockdown, my income only dropped by about 15% for a few months and much of that was recovered later.
 
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The net difference between paying $429K X 2.25% interest and making 7% on $429K in 30 year TIPS bonds right now would be over $20K a year. Your balance is high now and so is inflation, but if going forward you can average $10K a year on the spread that would add up to extra $290K over the next 29 years, plus interest, if you reinvested your savings on the difference each year.
 
We own five homes with no mortgages. I’m happy with our finances because we despise debt. The math may tell you to keep the mortgage, but only you can know what your gut says.
 
There is no way I'd dump that mortgage.

Your bank is going to dump it at a loss if they sell.
 
If you really want to build equity just double the payments.
 
Logic does not always win out. it's a good feel when the debt is gone. I think we were at 6% when we double payed off ours in ~2006.
2.5% OTOH, that is a license to print money.
 
At 8 pct inflation, definitely keep the mortgage, it is a great hedge.

And your longterm investment returns should handily exceed the after tax cost of the mortgage.

Also liquidity.

I would definitely keep it.

And I have one...at 2.69 pct taken out long ago. Though I am FIRE.
 
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