Work Situation - Opinions please

[sheldon cornped]

An employee met with his manager and HR person and was presented a 90 day performance improvement plan (PIP). He was told if he didn't meet the performance standards in the PIP after signing, he would be terminated on or before the 90 days. The HR person said "if you don't wish to sign the PIP, I can check on a severance package for you if like. Does anyone think this is a trap? What if they check and a package is not available? What are the risks here? Thanks for your input as always.

[nash031]

My wife is in a director level position at a company where they have a separate HR that handles employee performance based on her input. In the instances where she has had HR issue a 90-day PIP, it has 100% of the time resulted in eventual (usually near-term) termination, usually due to failure to meet the PIP. It's a step in the termination process. I can't speak to the severance issue other than to say in the instances where my wife was involved in terminating employees in this manner, there wasn't any severance involved, just already accrued pay and vacation reimbursement.

[robnplunder]

I don't think it is a trap.


BUT ... in my megacorp experience, I can tell you more than 1/2 don't make it out of PIP. They either find another job or get terminated. The rest make it out of PIP but not without heavy financial penalty (no salary increase, no bonus, etc for duration and even after PIP) and the perception of having been a "bad" employee. My suggestion is that you find a new job while going along with PIP (to buy time).

[Lisa99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nash031 it has 100% of the time resulted in eventual (usually near-term) termination, usually due to failure to meet the PIP

+1

I've been a manager for a long time and a PIP is a tick in the box before someone can be fired in my mega corp. I've only had to do a few PIPs but once you're subject to a PIP it's almost impossible to find another job in the company and if you were able to do the job there wouldn't be a PIP involved. If you're fired there is no severance.

If they're offering to see if a package is available I'd jump at it if I were offered it.

[rodi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa99 If they're offering to see if a package is available I'd jump at it if I were offered it.

I've seen peers in this situation - and it was definitely a reputation killer. No other manager or department, within the company, would touch an employee who'd gone through a PIP plan. Even YEARS after coming out the other side. And no promotions were ever offered.

I saw two people, specifically, who had PIPs, met all the requirements, weren't fired then... but when the layoff lists came around they were literally at the top of the list.

One had no choice but to go through the PIP process since she was on an H1B visa - so termination without another job in hand meant leaving the country.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa99 +1 I've been a manager for a long time and a PIP is a tick in the box before someone can be fired in my mega corp. I've only had to do a few PIPs but once you're subject to a PIP it's almost impossible to find another job in the company and if you were able to do the job there wouldn't be a PIP involved. If you're fired there is no severance. If they're offering to see if a package is available I'd jump at it if I were offered it.

+1
I've only done a few, only one person came out of theirs. I can write a PIP thats impossible to achieve, I've seen it done to people.

If the package sounds OK, if it were me I'd take it. Understand once you were given one of these it was ok'ed by HR. You are all lined up for termination.

Maybe you work in a kinder gentler Megacorp than I did. So YMMV. Best wishes.

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[Lisa99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRG +1 Maybe you work in a kinder gentler Megacorp than I did

kinder gentler AND megacorp aren't usually said in the same sentence nowadays unfortunately.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisa99 kinder gentler AND megacorp aren't usually said in the same sentence nowadays unfortunately.

I know but I can always hope for Poly and Anna to meet again.

I know there out there, just waiting.

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[David1961]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheldon cornped He was told if he didn't meet the performance standards in the PIP after signing, he would be terminated on or before the 90 days.

Does this mean they don't even have to wait the 90 days to fire you? Is there any minimum time before they can terminate the employee? Seems like a trap.

[sheldon cornped]

I neglected to say that this person has had 36 consecutive years of good performance reviews. The latest was the first bad one, although did not get the worst rating possible. The supervisor has anger management issues which the employee has yet to divulge this information. The employee can cite numerous occasions where Code of Conduct policy has been violated.

[foxfirev5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheldon cornped An employee met with his manager and HR person and was presented a 90 day performance improvement plan (PIP). He was told if he didn't meet the performance standards in the PIP after signing, he would be terminated on or before the 90 days. The HR person said "if you don't wish to sign the PIP, I can check on a severance package for you if like. Does anyone think this is a trap? What if they check and a package is not available? What are the risks here? Thanks for your input as always.

Since you really don't have much to lose I would push to get the specifics of the severance prior to the decision to signing the PIP. It is only good business practice to insist on knowing the details of your options. If the HP person has any ethics or integrity at all this should not be a problem.

[nash031]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheldon cornped I neglected to say that this person has had 36 consecutive years of good performance reviews. The latest was the first bad one, although did not get the worst rating possible. The supervisor has anger management issues which the employee has yet to divulge this information. The employee can cite numerous occasions where Code of Conduct policy has been violated.

If this is true and this person chooses to pursue this path, I would not sign the PIP, submit a statement to that affect, seek out the company's grievance procedures and consider legal counsel. While not likely to fix the difference in personalities, it might get some form of severance. The caution here being that if all that exists is anecdotal evidence with no documentation of said Code of Conduct issues, it will be easily dismissed as retribution for a poor performance review and issuance of a PIP, and likely not help the situation in any way, shape, or form.

In any event, I don't really see a way that I would want to stay employed there and would still suggest that this ends in termination of one form or another. The company is starting action to terminate, regardless of other circumstances.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David1961 Does this mean they don't even have to wait the 90 days to fire you? Is there any minimum time before they can terminate the employee? Seems like a trap.

That's how it was where I w*rked may be different by state and company.

Let's say I write up a hypothetical person for using offensive language in the workplace. After that is disclosed, hypothetical person uses offensive language directed at me(and my witness). Security is called next.

There's a hundred other ways to get someone out the door. Best advise if any package is offered take it. Unless you work for my Pollyanna company the offer decays rapidly.


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[Derslickmeister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRG +1 I've only done a few, only one person came out of theirs. I can write a PIP thats impossible to achieve, I've seen it done to people. If the package sounds OK, if it were me I'd take it. Understand once you were given one of these it was ok'ed by HR. You are all lined up for termination. Maybe you work in a kinder gentler Megacorp than I did. So YMMV. Best wishes. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app

+2 this is exactly how it is done in my Megacorp. Once you're PIP'd you're done. We tell folks its to help them improve and become better more productive employees but we both know it's because they are in the bottom 10% of the rankings. Take the message and the severance and avoid the embarrassment and degradation that is sure to come.

[Lakewood90712]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheldon cornped I neglected to say that this person has had 36 consecutive years of good performance reviews. The latest was the first bad one, although did not get the worst rating possible. The supervisor has anger management issues which the employee has yet to divulge this information. The employee can cite numerous occasions where Code of Conduct policy has been violated.

36 years, can you say "age discrimination " ?

Time for a chat with an employee rights atty.

The bad thing is , as others have posted, without documented proof of wrongdoing by the supervisor, the employee is toast. In my experience ,it's even worse in civil service, as I have seen first hand, the whistle blower is routinely thrown off the cliff, because he/she has now brought a problem up to the surface that has to be dealt with.

[ERhoosier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakewood90712 36 years, can you say "age discrimination " ? Time for a chat with an employee rights atty. The bad thing is , as others have posted, without documented proof of wrongdoing by the supervisor, the employee is toast. In my experience ,it's even worse in civil service, as I have seen first hand, the whistle blower is routinely thrown off the cliff, because he/she has now brought a problem up to the surface that has to be dealt with.

Age discrimination is indeed rampant, but unfortunately very difficult to prove. Evidence that would be accepted as "solid" for race or sex discrimination seems to just get blown off (even by SCOTUS) when age is the issue.
Age discrimination at work: How to fightÂ*back - Fortune
Chat with an atty is fine, but likely just wasted time & $$.

I agree with others that PIP basically means time to get another j#b. Or retire if that option is open.

[MRG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERhoosier Age discrimination is indeed rampant, but unfortunately very difficult to prove. Evidence that would be accepted as "solid" for race or sex discrimination seems to just get blown off (even by SCOTUS) when age is the issue. Age discrimination at work: How to fightÂ*back - Fortune Chat with an atty is fine, but likely just wasted time & $$. I agree with others that PIP basically means time to get another j#b. Or retire if that option is open.

I agree we had 300+ people listen to a new V.P. when he said "I want a younger, cheaper workforce ".

A few brave people went to HR about the "younger" comment as most of the people were in a "protected class" (age > 40). The respose was all 300 of you misunderstood what was said.

The folks that were older and didn't work 60-80 hours a week were soon gone.

Good luck and best wishes.

Edit to add: I would consult an attorney anyways, most offer free initial consultation.

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[target2019]

Yeah, the 36 years thing stands out. That is probably what is bringing about the severance talk. They don't want you, and realize that you have one card to play. So there is a little cake laid out for you near the exit.

I would consult an attorney for advice, so that you don't falter and accept a low-ball package.

[Dog]

I saw this tactic several times at my last company. I would ask HR for the severance offer in writing and ask that the company not deny unemployment. A PIP is a death sentence.


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[robnplunder]

One caution ....

Despite what others may lead you to believe, in employee vs management situation, employee rarely wins if at all. Something short of sexual and other harassment with witness who will back you up, it's not worth going all out against the management. Only dumb manager will make big enough mistake to shoot himself in the foot. Your best bet is to move on.