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Old 02-28-2021, 03:53 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by audreyh1 View Post
Were planning on using a CCRC. It will be self-funded.
Same for me.
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Old 03-01-2021, 06:15 PM   #22
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Thank you all for the interesting replies.
I respect the experience and knowledge shared in this forum.

Racy - yes, we live in a mid COL area We want to plan for 2 years of NH coverage.
We re planning for costs of $300,000 - in 2021 dollars

pb4uski - Thanks - Yes, I read about a 20-pay life insurance policy with an LTC rider and simultaneously the tIRA uses tIRA money to buy a 20 year annuity certain with annual benefits equal to the 20-pay life insurance policy premiums. I'm uncomfortable with this plan. So we are going to self fund and may go to a CCRC

My 92 year old mom (widow) has been in a CCRC for 12 years and it has worked out well. She needed skilled care in 2018 for 3 months - no problem and no bill !

Finally, I spoke with a nursing home social worker today re options (she s a friend of friend) who also described some experiences similar to rt-texas in which families who had paid premiums for years then found that they were denied coverage or had long conflicts trying to appeal.

I consider myself "educated" now and we will self fund and/or go to local CCRC.
Thank you for the replies.
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Old 03-01-2021, 07:43 PM   #23
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Can I ask who the problem policies are with? I signed up for LTC insurance at 27 because my employer paid part of it, my payment was less than $20/month. It's gone up, but so has the coverage; since I knew the power of compounding I purchased the inflation protection, 4% per annum. Mine is with Unum Provident, I'm hoping that if my spouse ever needs to use it for me that it will be a help, not a pain.

But will it keep going up, especially as you get older?
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Old 03-01-2021, 07:55 PM   #24
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Can I ask who the problem policies are with? I signed up for LTC insurance at 27 because my employer paid part of it, my payment was less than $20/month. It's gone up, but so has the coverage; since I knew the power of compounding I purchased the inflation protection, 4% per annum. Mine is with Unum Provident, I'm hoping that if my spouse ever needs to use it for me that it will be a help, not a pain.
MIL is with Genworth. But I think you will find similar stories from many on the forum who have had similar experiences. The basic problem with LTC plans are twofold:

1) They get to decide if you meet the criteria for being eligible, and the criteria is hard to pin down. There is a lot of wiggle room for them to decide you are not eligible.

2) They get to decide how much the plan is going to increase each year. In theory there is some formula based on prior years losses, but at the end of the day they calculate what it is and send you a bill. You either pay the increase each year, reduce your coverage, or cancel the policy and lose everything you put into it.

So they have all the power in the contract and you have the choice to pay the premiums and hope it will be there for you or back out and lose what you put into it. Its so one sided that its just a bad deal for most people.
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:04 PM   #25
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But will it keep going up, especially as you get older?
Actually, I went back and looked, and the increase was as a result of my employer not paying a portion of the premiums any longer. They used to pay for the most basic plan, and I paid $20/month for the additional coverage, but that change happened right around the time I was leaving that employer, so I wasn't paying as much attention as I usually do to the fine print. I don't think the premiums can ever go up, but the coverage has continued to outpace inflation.
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:21 PM   #26
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Having seen this first-hand, here's my take:

That $100K NH cost is not in addition to your current expenses.

The sick spouse's expenses go up but the healthy one's go down.

The healthy spouse spends all of his/her time visiting the sick one. So, no more expensive dinners, exotic travel, clothing; get rid of that second car, boat and second home; etc. Your world becomes a whole lot smaller as do your previous/normal discretionary expenses.

As such, depending on your situation, your expenses could drop by $50K or so making your 'additional' NH expense half of what you think it might be.

Still not an attractive situation but a bit more palatable.

YMMV
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:37 PM   #27
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Having seen this first-hand, here's my take:

That $100K NH cost is not in addition to your current expenses.

The sick spouse's expenses go up but the healthy one's go down.

The healthy spouse spends all of his/her time visiting the sick one. So, no more expensive dinners, exotic travel, clothing; get rid of that second car, boat and second home; etc. Your world becomes a whole lot smaller as do your previous/normal discretionary expenses.

As such, depending on your situation, your expenses could drop by $50K or so making your 'additional' NH expense half of what you think it might be.

Still not an attractive situation but a bit more palatable.

YMMV
That is what I have seen, and expect. So we are also "self insured".

This has been said many time here, but what I would pay for is a real "insurance" plan. 3 or 4 year elimination, but pay for rest of life.

We can easily afford the 3-4 years. The rest of life is the part we would want to insure, to preserve inheritance.
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Old 03-02-2021, 12:27 AM   #28
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Planning on self funding a CCRC when it’s time.
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Old 03-02-2021, 04:23 AM   #29
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Self funding. Under most scenarios using a "safe" withdrawal method, the odds of having "too much" money is far more likely than running out/just making it. Most of the time there would be plenty of funds to self fund and would have to get unlucky in the health lottery as well as the market which makes the odds of a self funding failure pretty low. The opportunity cost is way too high for me to be tempted to buy (and there is a lot of risk in the policy being there when I need it as well).
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Old 03-02-2021, 07:00 AM   #30
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With my mom the Ins company sent a nurses aid to assess her. She was still in her home with full time care and officially under hospice care. Terminal cancer with no more treatment only pain mgt and quality of life mgt. Insurance company (major US company) wrote back that she was denied because they didn't think she met "their" requirements of needing full time or LTC. We could appeal. We did.

This was August 2019. Thanksgiving week she was admitted full time into a private care facility. She passed December 16th.

After she had passed we received a letter to the appeal saying she was still denied. Good call, she was dead!

Plan had 90 day wait period. Discussed with attorney and decided not to pursue since at most we could push for would be two months. She paid over $80,000 into this and was so proud it would help cover her end of life and not burden us. We never told her it was denied.

Biased...big time. So wife and I have $400k set aside for LTC and I know I can access when and if needed. If we don't use it, it's earmarked for a specific charity we chose.
^^^^ One of the reasons that I am hesitant to buy traditional LTC, along with frequent demands for premium increases and/or benefit reductions.

However, these newer life insurance policies with an LTC rider seem to avoid the premium increases and while you might have a hassle getting LTC benefits when the insured passes then you get the life insurance death benefit.... so they do seem to sidestep my major concerns... still not all that interested though and plan to self-insure.
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Old 03-02-2021, 12:17 PM   #31
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Same for me.


Very interested in CCRC. Seems like a good balance.
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Old 03-02-2021, 12:23 PM   #32
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I don't trust the policies, the premiums, or the industry.
+1... LTC facilities are not for sissies. Cost is too much for a policy and the level of care is far too little even if you pay cash/full freight...

Just not for me....
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strategy for long term care
Old 03-02-2021, 12:50 PM   #33
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strategy for long term care

Originally I had planned to move into a CCRC eventually and had adequate assets to self fund that option (even at the most expensive CCRC's), but the pandemic changed my mind about CCRCs. A CCRC that I had tentatively identified as my best choice got hit hard by the first wave of COVID and almost everyone there caught it. Many dozens of their residents died from it last March and April, almost singlehandedly making New Orleans a COVID "hot spot". This was an established CCRC whose residents included some of the wealthiest and most influential of New Orleanian elites, and had a long time stellar reputation so if a place like that was dangerous, then I give up.

As an avowed introvert I wouldn't move to a CCRC for socializing, but for my own health and safety. After seeing what happened in 2020, to me that no longer seems like a logical reason to choose a CCRC.

So right now, we are going with "Plan B" and planning to age in place. We can help one another to some extent (he lives next door so we can check on each other easily). If at some point I genuinely need a nursing home I can afford it but I'd rather put that off as long as is humanly possible. I am not only concerned about diseases, but even more concerned about the potential for elder abuse in any group setting. Besides, I love my Dream Home and to me the ideal would be to live here to the end.
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Old 03-02-2021, 01:10 PM   #34
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Once I priced long term care insurance, I developed an alternate plan with my spouse. Our solution is mutual agreement to smother with a pillow if LTC is needed.
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Old 03-02-2021, 02:33 PM   #35
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Don't believe you can age in place and die a peaceful death in your home. My last memories of my FIL, who I loved dearly, was carrying him to the bathroom and wiping his arse. He could afford any care imaginable, but he was too stubborn and proud to do it. So we got to do it. His plan was to gracefully die in place. Cancer doesn't work that way. My MIL's best friend had the same plan. Her family is now carrying her around the house and wiping her arse. Again, plenty of money to get care, but she was bound and determined to die in her house. Nice plan, but she got cancer and could not care for herself. So for those who have that as their plan, please don't. It won't turn out that way.

For us, we are going to self insure LTC. My MIL's CCRC had a $500k buy in and she lives in a house for $4,800 a month. And it is a really nice CCRC. Since she is in a house, she never had to deal with the COVID spreading in the apartments, although they only had 2 deaths that she knows of out of 400 residents. And we are more than willing to carry her around and wipe her arse, we don't have to worry about that because she was gracious enough to move into the CCRC. She didn't want to, and she always brings up how we made her move, but she has no worries other than her poor health. They take care of everything. I thank her for that.
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Old 03-02-2021, 02:44 PM   #36
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Don't believe you can age in place and die a peaceful death in your home. My last memories of my FIL, who I loved dearly, was carrying him to the bathroom and wiping his arse. He could afford any care imaginable, but he was too stubborn and proud to do it. So we got to do it. His plan was to gracefully die in place. Cancer doesn't work that way. My MIL's best friend had the same plan. Her family is now carrying her around the house and wiping her arse. Again, plenty of money to get care, but she was bound and determined to die in her house. Nice plan, but she got cancer and could not care for herself.
FWIW, if money is not a real issue, you can get 24/7 care in your own house and die there if that's what you want to do. Lots of outfits out there that specialize in such things.

My brother has a housekeeper and someone else who comes in every other day to help with his showers/bathing. He could get someone to wipe him if he needed that too or whatever else a SNF does.
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Old 03-02-2021, 02:49 PM   #37
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FWIW, if money is not a real issue, you can get 24/7 care in your own house and die there if that's what you want to do. Lots of outfits out there that specialize in such things.

My brother has a housekeeper and someone else who comes in every other day to help with his showers/bathing. He could get someone to wipe him if he needed that too or whatever else a SNF does.
I wish my FIL would have done that. He would not allow any outside help until hospice showed up. That was 2 weeks before he died.
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Old 03-02-2021, 03:14 PM   #38
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FWIW, if money is not a real issue, you can get 24/7 care in your own house and die there if that's what you want to do. Lots of outfits out there that specialize in such things.

My brother has a housekeeper and someone else who comes in every other day to help with his showers/bathing. He could get someone to wipe him if he needed that too or whatever else a SNF does.
Both of my parents wanted to die at home and this is what we did. We organized and scheduled their care, drove them to doctors appts when needed and until it wasn't needed anymore as things were eminent, etc.

I plan to self pay as well. The only thing I might do is move closer to DD and family such that if she has to handle things, I am closer. It's also a much larger city with more potential resources to draw from than the little city I am in currently.
Plan B would be to move to a Senior facility down the street from where she lives.
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Old 03-02-2021, 04:39 PM   #39
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To the CCRC crowd.......

DW and I are also interested in entering a Plan A (Life Care) CCRC at some point. When that point occurs can be tough to figure out and does add a bit of risk to the decision.

We're in our early 70's and enjoying reasonably good health and still camp, canoe, fish, hike, etc. DW is a cancer survivor (on continued remission according to the oncologist) and I have persistent, long term AFIB. Neither of those things would keep us from qualifying for a Plan A contract.

As of today (we visited yet another CCRC this morning), we don't feel ready to sell our home and move there yet. Although we could still participate in off-site activities and the apartments and common areas were very nice and upscale, I'm just not ready to leave my home with its workshop, storage for our outdoor toys, my ham radio antennas, DW's quilting area and all that.

The risk in waiting is that if either of our health suffers some setback that would keep us from being fully independent, it's difficult or impossible to find a top notch CCRC that will take you on a Plan A basis. You have to find the right window of time to enter these places. Late enough in life that your passion for an out-and-about life style and being with younger people is not hindered but soon enough that you're still fully independent. Wait until you've suffered a stroke or until dementia hints that you'll be a quick resident of their memory care unit, and you won't get in. At least not with a Plan A contract.

The path we're leaning toward is setting things up so that the "buy-in" money we've set aside for the CCRC would also be appropriately invested and available to be "self-pay" money if we wind up missing the CCRC window.

So........

First choice - buy into a top notch, Plan A CCRC when we feel ready to settle down and are still fully capable of independent living (and therefore qualify).

Second choice - Self-insure for LTC including setting aside the funds and some planning regarding where the at-home spouse will live, how he/she will cover expenses, etc.

Financially, we're ok either way. Our preference for the Plan A CCRC is that we've seen the importance of having an advocate/visitor when you're a NH resident. DW spent five years visiting her DM several times a week, about a half hour's drive each way. It was brutal, especially in winter. If one of us needs NH care, we want the other to be living where visiting means easily walking over yet the independent living accommodations are definitely upscale and as pleasant as possible for the healthy spouse.
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Old 03-02-2021, 04:44 PM   #40
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My wife and I bought a single pay, combined insured, hybrid life policy with LTC benefits from One America/State Life company four years ago. It is a "two insureds" policy which provides the LTC benefits to either one, or the other, or both of us until the policy limits are reached. It also has a 3% inflation rider which we pay annually, and can quit paying for that at anytime if we feel we are adequately covered for our life expectancies. The policy pays up to $7000 a month LTC benefits, and will cover home care as well. It has a 60-day elimination period. The life insurance pays upon second to die, and amount is reduced by any LTC benefits paid. Policy was issued based on "combined age" (i.e., wife was 62 and I was 69 at issue, so premium based on combined age 64. Paid $121,000 up front, life insurance amount is $233,000. So, if LTC benefit is never used, our kids get the $233,000! So, I figured for peace of the LTC coverage and "refund" feature to our family via life benefits, the insurance company gets to use/invest our upfront premium. Fair deal!!
But what is the current annual cost for the "3% inflation" rider?
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