90 plus lifestyle & spending

[harllee]

It is interesting to me that so many of us on this Forum have parents that live to be age 90 plus. According to life expectancy tables from last year, men age 65 have a 22% chance of living to age 90 and women age 65 have a 34% chance of living to age 90 (these numbers may be going down this year due to Covid).

 

[Car-Guy]

My Dad is 93 and lives in an Assisted Living facility that's really nice. The cost is enormous! $7500 per month. ($90k). He has income streams, pension, dividends, social security that pay for more than half the total. I take care of his bills, finances etc. but it still kills me to write that check!

My MIL lived in a very nice assisted living facility 20+ years ago and I think it was 6.5 to 7k a month back then... Private apartment, all utility bills, meals and housekeeping included along with a nurse on site 7x24... So from my perspective the prices haven't increased that much... Of course we may not be comparing apples to apples...

 

[JustCurious]

Should our financial model recognise a substantial decrease in spending as we get to 90? Or should we continue to assume we will continue to spend and consume?

It's a good question. To the extent that your financial model assumes you will live beyond 90 (an unlikely event itself) you should assume a substantial decrease in spending. Perhaps even at 85.

 

[O2Bfree]

We're planning for a moderate increase in expenses to cover medical issues, based on uncertainty about our expected life spans. DH's dad died in his 40s from a brain tumor that may or may not have been cancerous, and his mom died in her 70s from lung disease due to heavy smoking. DH does have some long-lived grandparents in his line though, and his older brother has trashed his body with drugs and alcohol for decades but is still doing pretty well. I'm adopted and don't know anything about my bio family's health history. We've discussed some worst-case situations, such as needing expensive, long-term memory care, and are open to considering rather extreme options if necessary, such as care in another country.

 

[DayDreaming]

And yet a few inspirational counterexamples keep me hoping for the best.

We had a neighbor a couple of decades ago who still put on a suit and took the bus to his downtown office every day at the age of 101. He didn't do anything but read the paper once he got there, since he had sold the business long before, but he kept his office just to have a place to go. Sharp of mind and OK of body, he was lucky enough to go quickly when he finally went.

People like that give me great hope, despite the sobering statistics about "most" elderly.

It's nice to hear stories like this. But I'm guessing his discretionary expenses were low, not spending a lot on traveling or luxuries - what do you think?

 

[braumeister]

It's nice to hear stories like this. But I'm guessing his discretionary expenses were low, not spending a lot on traveling or luxuries - what do you think?

Of course. But while this anecdote was inspirational to me, it was the exception to the more common experience that my mother had.

 

[walkinwood]

This paper by Bernicke is worth reading. It is based on US data.

https://www.i-orp.com/help/RealityRetirementPlanning.pdf

This paper by Blachett talks of the "Retirement smile" curve in spending.Also quite illuminating.

https://www.i-orp.com/paper/help/Blanchett_True-Cost-of-Retirement.pdf

 

[Katsmeow]

Many of the posts conflate health care costs with long term care. For many people actual health care costs don't really grow that much in older age because they have medicare and a supplement which pays for most everything. For my mother, her major non-covered health care cost was dental. But, that was true even in her younger older years.

True long care such as memory care or a nursing home is expensive. But, most people will not need it for an extended period time. Even for those people who do need it, the average is about 3 years. There are a lot of people who don't have a ton of money who could afford to pay for 3 years of long term care. For most people, after that, then they need to look at Medicaid eligibility. But again, many people never need long term care at all.

It is a personal choice whether you want to save enough money to be bullet proof against the small chance of needing more than 3 years of long term care. Many people will not want to make that choice.

 

[HI Bill]

I really like Marketwatch's retirement calculator, as it models the 'go-go, slow-go and no-go' years. My mom was in the go-go years until around 78, and as dementia set in, drastically cut spending, until she fell and broke her hip and ended up in a memory care unit. Only then, in the no-go period (6 weeks) did her spending increase to ~$7K/month due to medical care and memory unit care costs.

In this calculator, see the Spending tab. You can adjust what ages you think will correspond to your 'active, average, and less active years. This helps you visualize how your spending may change with time as you travel less, spend less on cars and things, and become less active physically, when you typically require more health care.

http://www.marketwatch.com/retirement/tools/retirement-planning-calculator

 

[Bamaman]

I can see myself sitting around all day long looking at cable television news.

And complaining about the government to anyone that would listen.

 

[RunningBum]

Many of the posts conflate health care costs with long term care

....

True long care such as memory care or a nursing home is expensive. But, most people will not need it for an extended period time.
...

It is a personal choice whether you want to save enough money to be bullet proof against the small chance of needing more than 3 years of long term care. Many people will not want to make that choice.

Seems to me most have been clear that spending goes up in those cases where memory or long term care is needed. Regardless, you are correct that a lot of people won't face this, or not for long. And as you say, it's a personal choice. But as I said in my first post in this thread, do you plan for your best case, or your worst? Not the absolute worst thing that could ever happen, of course, but something bad that reasonable could happen.

I see a lot of people talking about how expenses are certain to go down as you get older and aren't as active, without acknowledging the possibility that health issues could be very expensive. Handle it how you want, but it shouldn't just be ignored. Choose not to save for it if you want, but make it a conscious choice.

 

[coveredbridge]

I won't reach 90 until 2051, so if Ray Kurzweil is right and the Singularity is achieved in 2045 (others believe it could very well be sooner), I only need to make it to about 84, at which point I can transfer my consciousness to a computer and discard my decrepit physical body. I hope it doesn't cost too much!

 

[Retch The Grate]

We are all told to make sure our retirement nest egg does not run out and that many of us now have a good chance of living well into our 90s (in my case, based on genetics, it seems to be a good probability), however, have any of us actually planned for a 90s lifestyle?

If we live to our 90s, it does seem that for all but a very small number, our spending will be greatly reduced and our lifestyle will largely consist of sitting at our home (whether our own home or a nursing home).

Should our financial model recognise a substantial decrease in spending as we get to 90? Or should we continue to assume we will continue to spend and consume?

Also, has anyone given serious thought to what their lifestyle will be like in their 90s (maybe some contributors are already there).

Be interested to hear people's thoughts.

By mid-90s my grandfather's travel was greatly reduced, but early 90s he was still doing trips to Europe, walking around NYC (where he lived), going to restaurants with friends, etc. He probably was spending less, but until his health really started impacting his ability to get around, he was active, happy and still spending (he was also a child of the Depression, so despite being very well off, he wasn't a huge spender outside of things like travel and meals with friends, very much an experiences not stuff kind of guy).

 

[Retch The Grate]

And yet a few inspirational counterexamples keep me hoping for the best.

We had a neighbor a couple of decades ago who still put on a suit and took the bus to his downtown office every day at the age of 101. He didn't do anything but read the paper once he got there, since he had sold the business long before, but he kept his office just to have a place to go. Sharp of mind and OK of body, he was lucky enough to go quickly when he finally went.

People like that give me great hope, despite the sobering statistics about "most" elderly.

Sounds like my grandfather, he was still going in to the office every day until the "young guys" he'd brought on (they were now in their mid-60s) decided to move the office from NYC to Jersey City. He commuted by car a bit, but he was not safe driving and had to give it up. Sadly I do think stopping "working" (he would hang out, read the paper, chat with people, etc.), mostly the no longer walking a couple miles a day between home and office, contributed to his declining health in his mid-90s and he passed away a few years later.

 

[Aus_E_Expat]

My father died in 2019 at age 95. He was fit and active until the last 12 months of his life. He had a fall at close to 94 and never really recovered and had to move into a nursing home (assisted living).

Although he was mentally and physically active until about 94, I think he basically stopped spending money ay about age 85. From then, he stopped travelling and was never one for going out for dinner, etc.

In Australia, it seems to be generally possible to afford a nursing home (assisted living) if you are middle class.

Medical costs were never an issue in Australia as they are paid for by government (and in any event, he had private insurance if required).

When he died at 95, he had more money in his bank / investment accounts than when he retired 30 years earlier.

 

[Teacher Terry]

My mom had 3 bouts of cancer between 78-90. It didn’t slow down her travels until the third bout at 87. She lived alone until a week before she died. She didn’t spend much the last 3 years because of her health.

 

[Sgare]

I let it be known to my kids that I don't want any of that care. When I am older if I fall down in the back yard and hit my head on rock, let it be. Don't blow money getting my diaper changed for years. I am not sure if this will be an option, as we go on the state seems to show who is in charge.

 

[Amethyst]

"Letting you go" is not a real option, unless you live all by yourself with no one around.

I let it be known to my kids that I don't want any of that care. When I am older if I fall down in the back yard and hit my head on rock, let it be. Don't blow money getting my diaper changed for years. I am not sure if this will be an option, as we go on the state seems to show who is in charge.

 

[JoeWras]

This pandemic has given me a window into stay-at-home spending.

The upshot: not much! I'm really surprised at how low our spending is going to be this year.

Of course, care expenses are another matter. My experiences match Braumeister's observations on page 1.

 

[harllee]

I let it be known to my kids that I don't want any of that care. When I am older if I fall down in the back yard and hit my head on rock, let it be. Don't blow money getting my diaper changed for years. I am not sure if this will be an option, as we go on the state seems to show who is in charge.

If I totally have no quality of life I would probably feel the same way. But what if you are 90, still doing pretty good but you cannot drive and you need some help for things like taking a shower, preparing meals, grocery shopping, etc. Maybe you need to be in assisted living with some caretakers. Don't you want some help then?

 

[Sgare]

If I totally have no quality of life I would probably feel the same way. But what if you are 90, still doing pretty good but you cannot drive and you need some help for things like taking a shower, preparing meals, grocery shopping, etc. Maybe you need to be in assisted living with some caretakers. Don't you want some help then?

I guess it is a matter of perspective. Not sure how good of a quality of life that is if I can't clean myself or cook, etc. Food could always be delivered. I would still say let me do my best at home. If I am 90 and I am struggling with these things, let it be. I would rather keep trying at home than in a "care" home.

We have a bit of land (under 2 acres), which is why I say something about falling outside. To me, to extend my years by 3 - 5 having someone care for me, particularly if I can't think or don't have my memory seems like an awful waste of money.

 

[Out-to-Lunch]

Here is an interesting essay that relates to some of the foregoing: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/

The author (an oncologist and bioethicist) argues for a cessation of most medical treatment for himself, even routine care, past a certain age. (He chooses 75, but I would choose a later age, perhaps 80.) This article helped me realize how deeply ingrained the “normalness” of aggressive life-preserving care presently is, even for elderly people.

 

[NoiseBoy]

When Mom & Dad downsized form their 3BDRM, 3 car garage, two story 100+ year-old house into a 3 BDRM apartment in their late 80s, I was sure that the ~$1,000 a month rent would cause them to start using up their savings. Much to my surprise, it did not. As things turned out, water & sewer, heat, and basic cable were included with their rent. They gained a covered, heated parking space for their car and onsite laundry facilities. And no more repair bills. By then, they did not take trips out of town, so they lived comfortably, if economically, on ~$25k per year. They were not internet savy, so shopping online was never an issue for them.

That has changed since Mom passed away at 95 and Dad moved into assisted living. He runs about a $2,500 per month deficit now and I've had to start selling some of his assets. If he does not need more care, then his savings should last another 6 years. Dad will be 99 in January. He started with about $250k invested roughly 65/35. Dad did alright for them, especially considering how little he earned in his lifetime.

Note that they were both mostly healthy and Dad choose a good HMO to supplement Medicare.

Edit to add: Dad has pretty bad arthritis and needs a wheelchair, so once Mom died, he was not able to stay in the apartment on his own. He has a DNR and in no way wants any medical treatment that would extend his life.

 

[rodi]

My stepmom (93) is in a high end independent & assisted living facility. She splurged on a one bedroom (vs studio) with an ocean and bay view. Those two splurges added $1500/mo to rent - which is $8500/mo. She does not have a meal plan - which is no longer allowed for new residents... but she was grandfathered in. We had an outdoor visit with her last week - she's still going strong but misses playing bridge. (They make residents maintain social distance - which doesn't work for bridge.) Her youngest daughter brings her groceries 1x/week. My sister's former MIL lived at the same facility with a studio and no view for a lot less.

My MIL is in memory care. She was in a fairly fancy place outside Philadelphia and it was $7k/month... Unfortunately, the care was meh.... For a variety of reasons we moved her to suburban Detroit, near a different family member. Care is much better and it's only $4k/month. Mentally she's gone, but physically she's still fairly healthy - she turns 94 in a few days. BIL has 'window visits' with her several times a week.

We're budgeting for something similar to my stepmom...

 

[NoiseBoy]

Regarding health care costs versus long term care, with Dad, health care has not been an issue. He had a recent 13 day hospital stay for a bad fall, mostly just lots of bruising, so I believe the hospital kept him because they could bill Medicare (not enough patients due to Covid.) His out of pocket including the ambulance ride came to ~$2,000, or less than one month's withdrawal from savings to cover his assisted living rent.

Dad has a 1 BDRM ground floor apartment in what was a brand new facility when he moved in. He gets all of his meals and has laundry and housekeeping services for $4,400/month. That's for level II care. His facility offers assisted living (1 person assist), and memory care. That seems to be the trend here. Only a few places offer skilled nursing care in the area. Mentally Dad is fine so his risk is with getting too weak to be able to safely transfer without the help of more than 1 aid. FWIW I think his assist living operator is motivated to keep Dad as a paying resident. We went from too little capacity to too much here and his facility has never been more than 50% occupied.