Colorado River

[Chuckanut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo29 ‘It feels like a dying reservoir’: Deltas of sediment are pushing into Glen Canyon as Lake Powell disappears

I've wondered what John Wesley Powell would think of the dam, and the lake named after him.

Quote:

“There is not enough water to irrigate all the lands,” he remarked at a Los Angeles congress of farmers and developers in October 1893. “I tell you gentlemen you are piling up a heritage of conflict and litigation over water rights, for there is not enough water to supply the land.”

[Turbo29]

When the Commissioner of the Bureau of Reclamation when Glen Canyon Dam was built, Floyd Dominy, was asked about the fact that all of the sediment in the river would fill the reservoir with silt in a few hundred years he replied, "“We will let people in the future worry about it.”

[SecondAttempt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinger1457 Looks like things may get even worse for Lake Mead, at least in the short term. Lake Powell officials are taking emergency steps to increase the water levels in Lake Powell to keep hydropower generation going. Those steps will likely decrease the water going to Lake Mead. https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/03/us/la...ate/index.html

I think for the most part "Lake Powell officials" are also "Lake Mead officials" who all work for the Bureau of Reclamation and look to laws, contracts, and convanents to make their decisions.

[SecondAttempt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnowballCamper Which is worse, the loss of hydropower or significantly less food production from the loss of irrigation? A hydropower loss will be regional, but fallow fields will ripple across the country's grocery stores on top of existing inflation. Is another dustbowl situation coming? I sure hope not, but we'll find out this summer.

This is really a philosophical question.

If people get hungry or have to pay much more for their lettuce they may think more about why and what they can do. This turns the Colorado Basin issues into a national problem and that may be a good thing.

I live in Hawaii where my water falls from the sky and collects from my roof into my tank. Most of my food is from local suppliers. It would be easy to not care about this. And my original question was more academic than having a concern.

But having lived in the southwest most of my life, I can't help but be aware and concerned about water issues.

[Pellice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut I've wondered what John Wesley Powell would think of the dam, and the lake named after him.

Chuckanut, what great quotes! I knew that water was always a contested resource in the West, but did not know that even the builders of the infrastructure foresaw the limits.

It's telling to me that 7 or 8 states came together and agreed on the latest restrictions and measures. That would never happen were the situation not desperate - they'd be fighting each other in the courts.

A friend of mine, a native Californian living here in the East, was considering a move to Arizona recently. I implored her to think about the water, but she was surprisingly nonchalant - "Oh, I'm from California, we're used to restrictions."

I wonder if any polls or studies have been done to ask whether water concerns have factored in decisions of people - and, more especially, businesses (which carry people) - to refrain from moving to, or in fact to move out of - the Southwest.

[LA_Newsboy]

Just a thought:


Forty million people in several western states are not going to dry up and blow away. The water distribution problem will be tackled and solved. And it IS a distribution problem, not a water problem.


Anyone want to chime in on piping water from where they have it and don't want it to where they don't have it and want it...and will desperately need it soon?

[Delawaredave5]

Are there any damn questions ?....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6oxhLz9l5s

[RobLJ]

While you don't want to mention the word climate change, I'm sorry but the West is in a mega-drought. While mismanagement may be part of the issue, the long-term issue is the drought.
As you say, Rocky Mountain snowlevels are 86% of normal, (many areas like ski areas are well below that) so releasing water upstream will help, until they drain the upstream lakes. Here in Reno, the snow pack is about 65%, depending on where you measure. We also are in.......long-term drought; the pines in the higher Sierras are screwed and unless we get more moisture in the next year or two, fires like the big Calder fire that threatened Lake Tahoe communities will be the "norm" from now on. Luckily, I'm under less of a threat since we are lower down with fewer trees here on the foothills of Peavine Mountain and close to the Truckee on the west edge of Reno.



But Powell and Mead and the Colorado Rivershed are screwed, longerterm, unless the mega-drought reverses. I have no magic 8ball for this, so I can't help you. We had a good snowyear here in Northern Nevada 3 years ago that helped out here and in the Cali Sierras, and I'm hoping for a good year next year. Longer-term, many of the pines here where we hike are doomed. It is what it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecondAttempt I don't want to start a debate about climate change. I'm trying to ask a focused question on something I've observed that does not seem to make sense. I have been watching the water levels at Lake Mead and Lake Powell for the last couple of years. I lived most of my life in Arizona and the last "crisis" I remember was in the early 80s when there was serious worry of Glen Canyon Dam (Lake Powell) overtopping. Now it seems that Lake Mead is less than 5 feet of "minimum power pool," the level at which it cannot generate power. Lake Power is only about 30 feet above that level. If water levels drop as they have in the past year, both dams will stop generating power in the next year. By itself that is not a crisis because the US has plenty of generating capacity. But both downstream lakes/dams, Lake Mojave and Lake Havasu, are nearly full. So why not just let those lakes drop a little to fulfil our water delivery obligations to Mexico and California? Why not just close the valve on Lake Mead, take the power generation hit, and let is rise a little? The most recent plan I read is to release about half a million acre feet from a reservoir in Wyoming. But, while that may be one action to take it really does not solve the problem. Rocky mountain snowpack this year is 86% of average so we can expect low river flows. Part of me suspects a manufactured crisis or simply gross mismanagemnt of water flows to keep the lower lakes full while critically endangering Mead and Powell. Any insights? Am I missing something? Edit: Damn keyboard makes typos!

[RobLJ]

I'm sorry, it is a water problem, until the drought reverses, if it reverses. And yes you can build pipes from the Great Lakes or East Texas or desalinate, if you really want to spend the money.

After this rant, I agree with you, there are a lot of things to do, that will piss off conservative farmers in the Central Valley (who are the political power base), like cutting down the almond trees or stopping completely alfalfa and cotton growing around Phoenix, westward, and in the Cali Central Valley. These are water-intensive agriculture use that .... don't make sense in the dry West; economic incentives and water rights/law prop these uses up. This would prioritize urban/suburban use and devastate agriculture, the center of the Central Valley economy, but it can be done. Do we have the will and political power to do so? I doubt it, until the taps are running dry, which is in the next decade.

I grew up in Western Oklahoma where farmers for two generations pumped from the great Oglalla Aquifer--until it pretty much ran dry in Southern Kansas and Western Oklahoma. Farmers knew what was happening, since pumps had to go 100, then 200, then 300, then 400 feet down, but they didn't stop pumping or simply denied reality--until it ran dry on them (the Aquifer is still running further North).

I learned in high school in the 70's that our ability to ignore reality and the tragedy of the commons is extremely high, if there is a financial incentive to continue business as usual, and there are great incentives to do so, until everything breaks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA_Newsboy Just a thought: Forty million people in several western states are not going to dry up and blow away. The water distribution problem will be tackled and solved. And it IS a distribution problem, not a water problem. Anyone want to chime in on piping water from where they have it and don't want it to where they don't have it and want it...and will desperately need it soon?

[Out-to-Lunch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobLJ And yes you can build pipes from the Great Lakes ... if you really want to spend the money.

It is not just the money: https://www.in.gov/dnr/water/lake-mi...lakes-compact/

[RobLJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckanut I've wondered what John Wesley Powell would think of the dam, and the lake named after him.

This hits at the nub of the issue. As Wallace Stegner notes over and over and over in his excellent biography of Powell (Beyond the 100th Meridian), Powell realized early that the West was a) dry, b) would not support dry farming for long, given the tendency towards drought and c) water needed to be preserved carefully in the West. Powell is an interesting figure, well worth of reading his biography, even if he is largely ignored now. I highly recommend this book, as well as David Weber, for anyone interested in water issues in the Western US.

[RobLJ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out-to-Lunch It is not just the money: https://www.in.gov/dnr/water/lake-mi...lakes-compact/

Politics are for feuding; water rights are for fighting, as my Okie granddad used to say. But your point is exactly correct; states with water aren't going to just give it up. The West doesn't have water.

[RobLJ]

Sorry to hog the thread; I've got xericape in the back yard and only a 20x10 foot patch of grass in the front yard. When water gets restricted, I'll xeriscape the front yard too and drip water the cherry and apple and peach trees. By the way, average spring temps in Reno are up almost 6 degrees since the 50's, pretty much the highest increase in the US. We are at the point of the spear., saved only by the Truckee River flowing out of Lake Tahoe.

[yhoomajor]

Its May.. annual doom and gloom time of year when seasonal runoffs from snow-melt in higher elevation haven't started flowing to Lake Powell (yet). Yes, water level in two lakes is lower now this year compared to last year.

A country like Saudi Arabia can build dozens of desalination plants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_...n_Saudi_Arabia).. but for some reason US can't? Oh is it the money? Looks like we just spent $40 billion to keep a war going in Europe. But can't afford $40 billion dollar to setup water de-salination plants in US for our own citizens?

Point is - its not because of lack of money. Politicians find money(aka print more fiat) when they are motivated to find(print/debt) it.

And those who say it is very expensive: Annual investment in water supply and sanitation expenses that Saudi Arabia has is US$200/capita.

[RobLJ]

Doom and gloom is warranted.
"The Colorado River basin has experienced three D4 droughts in the last 20 years, including the current one. 2002, 2018 and 2021 are the most intense dry periods on record for the basin." Admittedly, strong monsoons and snowpack COULD come back, but look at the charts of the drought and the the fact that Colorado reservoirs are at 48% of capacity (that was 4-5 months ago, I'm sure capacity has crept up, some). By the way, in September 2021, storage in the basin was down to 39% of capacity.

It's not a pretty picture, but as you say, desalination is certainly a possibility; I think San Diego is already desalinating, but I can be corrected on this.

I will repeat, the reservoirs in the basin were below half capacity. Vegas was lucky to complete its lower "pipestraw" below the former one, because the old higher one is now about to suck air.

https://www.sciencefriday.com/segmen...ado-river-dry/

[yhoomajor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobLJ Doom and gloom is warranted. "The Colorado River basin has experienced three D4 droughts in the last 20 years, including the current one. 2002, 2018 and 2021 are the most intense dry periods on record for the basin." Admittedly, strong monsoons and snowpack COULD come back, but look at the charts of the drought and the the fact that Colorado reservoirs are at 48% of capacity (that was 4-5 months ago, I'm sure capacity has crept up, some). By the way, in September 2021, storage in the basin was down to 39% of capacity. It's not a pretty picture, but as you say, desalination is certainly a possibility; I think San Diego is already desalinating, but I can be corrected on this. I will repeat, the reservoirs in the basin were below half capacity. Vegas was lucky to complete its lower "pipestraw" below the former one, because the old higher one is now about to suck air. https://www.sciencefriday.com/segmen...ado-river-dry/

Right.. water level in these two reservoirs are lower than past few years. But lets not forget that if we reduce agriculture portion of water usage (by even 50%) in CA and AZ, then CA and AZ are self-sufficient with local water supply. Not sure what the dynamics are for Nevada (I need to research more about Nevada's geography).

Reduced agricultural output from CA and AZ will have just as much impact on rest of country as it will on CA and AZ.

Desalination plants work. They have been working in Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE et al. Energy consumption for desalination has come down (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination). If we can build pipelines to transport heavy oil from north to south, we can build pipelines to ship desalinated water to AZ, CA and Nevada.

[6miths]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Out-to-Lunch It is not just the money: https://www.in.gov/dnr/water/lake-mi...lakes-compact/

Yes and six years ago the Great Lake that is Huron-Michigan was at a record low level. Thankfully has rebounded but I don't think the locals would be too pleased to see water being piped at huge expense so people could live in the desert. There are protests when PepsiCo and Coca Cola pull water from them to bottle and ship away.

[street]

I'm very fortunate to live in an area that has great water and so far, plenty of it. I had mentioned before that I have two sand point wells that I have driven in the last few years. Water about 15 feet down and don't even need a pressure tank. Water runs right out the hills and right up through the ground. They run all year and never stop. I check depth each year and the depth hasn't changed but I would think if the drought continued for a few more years, it could.
Yellowstone River is very low now and it should be running hard and furious this time of year. I'm sure it will raise some from now till June but without significant moisture this year it will be very low by freeze up.

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by street I'm very fortunate to live in an area that has great water and so far, plenty of it. I had mentioned before that I have two sand point wells that I have driven in the last few years. Water about 15 feet down and don't even need a pressure tank. Water runs right out the hills and right up through the ground. They run all year and never stop. I check depth each year and the depth hasn't changed but I would think if the drought continued for a few more years, it could...

I am envious.

I now have to figure out if there's enough sunlight there to have my own solar farm. If you have plenty of water and electricity, you can solve a lot of other problems.

[RobLJ]

Reducing agricultural use in CA (Central Valley) will be.......... interesting, politically and otherwise (food prices) but I agree with you in the main, yhoomajor.

I've never understood why, from a geological perspective, LA, Phoenix, and Vegas got big. Vegas, however, is recycling all of its waste water (not run-off unfortunately); LA and Phoenix will get there soon, I'm sure.